14-02-2001 10:02									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The Civ II problem comes down to the desire to force a result. If a bomber attacks and fails to kill the defender, it has to "lose" and is destroyed. In terms of single engagements, it is nonsense. Artillery barrages can be deadly but never ever kill everyone. There is only one documented example of an air attack destroying an entire armoured formation.

The suggestion that all naval and arial bombing be treated as ranged bombardment is a good one to remove problems there. Ignoring the implications of stacked combat, it still leaves the pikeman v tank and fighter v archer scenarios alive. One plausible option would be to permit the defender to retreat or halt combat after a certain number of rounds. Both of them have an impact on game balance though. If defenders can retreat then all sorts of strategies for fighting defensive battles become plausible. I think I would rather leave the occasional surprise victory in the game. There is nothing to stop a sneak night attack destroying the tanks fuel reserves or ambushing the crews in their beds. Many modern vehicles are also astonishingly prone to breakdowns. You'd never get an entire division wiped out this way, but you'd also never get 100% of the division to survive a battle without casualties or mechanical failures either. The desire to represent conflict over years in just one move means rationalisations have to be made.
[This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited February 13, 2001).]

	14-02-2001 10:08									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I would say civ2 units are more representative of battalions than divisions. After all they don't take any population from the city when built (which needs to be rectified). On principal, I agree with you.

	14-02-2001 00:26									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Pikemen should never be able to even scratch a tank! the tank would not even have to do anything while waiting for the pikemen to die from exhaustion trying to hit the armor with no effect at all. What happens if a single tank unit is fighting 10 units of pikemen?
same thing! just floor the pedal and run everybody down!
pikemen downing an airplane? hehehe...the funniest thing I ever heard. if the pikemen has a 20,000 ft polearm then he might stand a chance.

	14-02-2001 05:24									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Other ways pikemen can destroy a tank...

1. Pikemen cut down a bunch of trees, remove the tops of the downed trees, and create a log trap (roll a bunch of logs at the tank). The Maginol Line used defenses like this.

2. Pikemen drop some big friggin rocks on top of and in front of the tanks.

3. Pikemen ambush tank crew while they're outside of the tank pissing.

Also, you're missing my point when you say "pikemen should never be able to even scratch a tank." In real life, sure, it's pretty unlikely that pikemen will defeat a tank division. So what! Civ III is not meant to emulate real life, otherwise the above battle would not be possible in the game. Technological differences have never been that extreme in real life; if anything, technologically backwards cultures will buy or steal weapons off of a more advanced civilization. In "real life" tech leakage is the great leveller; Civ I and Civ II had no tech leakage (unless you count spying).

To quote a (more or less) wise man, "if you want realism then play two turns and die of old age."

	14-02-2001 08:57									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

More ways:

Using the terrain, ie. starting a big brushfire in a grassland, or rockslide in mountains... nothing like mother earth to break up a tank formation

Also, just plain old mud can stall a tank... you can sneak up at night and let the air out of a mech infanty's tires... not to meantion key thier jeeps, make 'em really mad... set loose moths in the paratrooper's bags, or tie the rip cord to their bag lunches... okay, I'm digressing here. The point is, all units can hurt one another, with the possible exception of some ground units vs. sea or air units. While we have proven that pikemen can beat a tank, pikeman cannot hope to stop a bombing run.

------------------
"Any shred of compassion left in me was snuffed out forever when they cast me into the flames..."
- Marsil, called the Pretender

	14-02-2001 09:20									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

At the same time, a bombing run has little chance of wiping out a group of pikemen. If I had bombs raining on me I'd dig a trench and lay down in it; odds are that the bombs won't land inside the trench itself, so as long as I keep my head down I'm safe. You don't need to be a rifleman to figure out how to dig. The same is true for shore bombardments. That's why saying that bombers are bombarding units would solve the whole realism issue without getting too picky about it (like adding fifty to a hundred new stats to a unit).

	14-02-2001 21:50									#39
	Tired of ads?

I agree. One of CTP's "positive lessons" was that bombers and shore bombardments work better at just that: bombarding.