30-03-2002 00:37									#91
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AS:

Worthwhile points you brought up. What do you know of value-added locally-owned ag ventures? Would that be a good way to help family-level farmers stay on the farm? Around where I live, it's the latest "rage" so to speak, but we still have only a few such actual ventures (a soybean plant and four ethanol plants).

A little "outside the farm belt" perspective would be appreciated.

Gatekeeper

	30-03-2002 00:39									#92
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quote: Dan, the integrated steel plants are funding the pensions of more people than they have active employees. Can't remember exact numbers though, but I'll try to look them up

One on the job, three on pension, IIRC.

	30-03-2002 01:04									#93
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Something along those lines, yes. From the economist I learned that, the steel industry funds health and pension benefits of 600,000 retired steel workers (against 160,000 currently employed), costing $13 billions annually.
These costs are also concentrated in a circle of traditional integrated steel producers, which are also the most troubled companies.

	30-03-2002 02:19									#94
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I just read that the White House declined to expand a program designed to support and retrain workers who lost their jobs due to import competition, named Trade Adjustment Assistance. It seems downright bizarre to me that this is not acceptable while it is to discredit your trade policies and infuriate steel exporters.

	30-03-2002 02:40									#95
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If those numbers are from the Economist, don't believe them.

A $12 billion figure seems to stick in my head. 250K employed. These could be tweaked figures, though.

In any event, that's quite substantial and enough money to have a little scuffle among friends.

	30-03-2002 02:53									#96
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If I have to choose between something that's stuck in your mind and the economist, I'll go for the latter, thank you.

	30-03-2002 03:46									#97
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Suit yourself. You'll never know what you missed.

	30-03-2002 04:01									#98
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Yeah well whatever, the American Iron and Steel Institute says the steel industry employed 139,000 in January 2002.

	30-03-2002 04:33									#99
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Yeh, well the Economist should have checked its numbers. They were 20,000 off! And they get paid to check their facts. I can rely on industry lobbyists.

The BLS says 191,000, down from about 235,000 in '98. This doesn't include iron ore or coal producers tied to the steel industry.

http://www.uswa.org/press/steelcrisis020102.html

Last edited by DanS on 30-03-2002 at 05:10

	30-03-2002 04:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yeh, well the Economist should have checked its numbers. They were 20,000 off! And they get paid to check their facts. I can rely on industry lobbyists.

Was Arthur Andersen involved in this?

	30-03-2002 10:40									#101
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"They were 20,000 off!"

And you were off, like 100,000?

AISA says 139,000, source: BLS. Obviously, differences are due different standards so stop being a cheap nitpicker.

	01-04-2002 08:46									#102
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No, no. I was off by less when you consider the mining jobs. Check the BLS figures for yourself. 190k, just for steelworkers.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t11.htm

I bumped this up, because the Post had a good article on the political dynamics going on here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Mar30.html

This is totally "inside baseball", so y'all might not be too interested. But to clearly understand where Bush is coming from, it might be useful for you to consider his political goals.

	02-04-2002 13:45									#103
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Well didn't dubya get the teamsters on board for Alaska oil drilling ? So he is successfully expanding the party's corruption base.

Say what you want, I call that special interest whoring corruption.

	02-04-2002 21:59									#104
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quote: Originally posted by GP Actually subsidies of this sort are a wealth transfer. While the farmers in the 3rd World are hurt, the 3rd World country overall benefits (wealths is transferred from rich country to poor one, when goods are "dumped". Most extreme example would be getting free stuff.)

Is it? If there are no subsidies maybe the ag businesses will actually have to compete with the local small farmers, which means less money is needed to import food, and that means less wealth transferred to another country.

	02-04-2002 22:01									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper AS: Worthwhile points you brought up. What do you know of value-added locally-owned ag ventures? Would that be a good way to help family-level farmers stay on the farm? Around where I live, it's the latest "rage" so to speak, but we still have only a few such actual ventures (a soybean plant and four ethanol plants). A little "outside the farm belt" perspective would be appreciated. Gatekeeper

Try organic farming.

	03-04-2002 10:03									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Is it? If there are no subsidies maybe the ag businesses will actually have to compete with the local small farmers, which means less money is needed to import food, and that means less wealth transferred to another country.

huh? restate.

	03-04-2002 10:17									#107
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"Well didn't dubya get the teamsters on board for Alaska oil drilling ? So he is successfully expanding the party's corruption base."

No, he got most of the rest of labor as well. A real tour de force of politics. The Democratic leadership and much of the liberal constituency was blindsided and is still stanching the bleeding from the defection.

I don't understand where you're coming from by busting our balls on the interests involved. This is 75,000 union high-paying jobs in the US versus non-union jobs overseas. What's not worthy of support from a union perspective?

Further, labor is feared and respected most because it is highly effective in getting out the vote, especially in the latest elections. What's wrong with accentuating the fact that your interests are converging with labor?

Really Roland, to hear you talk, I wonder how politics is done in Austria.

	03-04-2002 10:19									#108
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Gatekeeper:

quote: What do you know of value-added locally-owned ag ventures? Would that be a good way to help family-level farmers stay on the farm? Around where I live, it's the latest "rage" so to speak, but we still have only a few such actual ventures (a soybean plant and four ethanol plants).

Just saw your 3/29 post above. I don't know exactly what you mean by "value-added locally-owned ag ventures", but I do know there have been studies in Minnesota, Iowa, and Kansas showing that farmers are buying larger trucks so they can move more of their crops to local processing plants (feed production, oil, ethanol) rather than shipping the raw product into world ag markets. Is this what you mean? I can probably dig up cites if you are interested.

	03-04-2002 10:25									#109
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There are a host of areas where family farms can add value. One way is inserting some of the processing stage into the growing stage. For instance, potato chip manufacturers will pay a high premium for a certain type and shape of potato. If growers can fill that need better than others, they are golden.

But remember that corporate farms can do it just as well, or perhaps better, and probably with a lower cost structure.

	03-04-2002 10:31									#110
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Gatekeeper:

Forgot to add there is also a realtively new government program which encourages small farmers to sell fresh fruits and vegetables directly to food stamp recipients through farmers markets. Its not really a market mechanism, but does appear to fit what you are talking about.

(Made another post for this, thereby resisting the urge to pull a DanS by editing the my previous post )

	03-04-2002 13:21									#111
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"No, he got most of the rest of labor as well. A real tour de force of politics."

Quite impressive. And expensive.

"This is 75,000 union high-paying jobs in the US versus non-union jobs overseas. What's not worthy of support from a union perspective?"

75000 jobs ? Where ?

"Further, labor is feared and respected most because it is highly effective in getting out the vote, especially in the latest elections. What's wrong with accentuating the fact that your interests are converging with labor?"

There's nothing wrong with bringing special interests into the political process, but this amounts pretty much to vote-selling.

"Really Roland, to hear you talk, I wonder how politics is done in Austria."

After having observed it for about 20 years, I'm actually still wondering.... but that kind of US style corruption is rare. Couple years ago, the Mediaprint empire managed to get an exception from social security for their newspaper sellers - that is corruption. I think that one was killed by the constitutional court, though....

	03-04-2002 13:52									#112
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quote: Originally posted by rah Then the EU isn't as smart as you think. There is way too much time between now and his reelection for this to linger in voter's minds. We're talking short attention span americans here. RAH

By that logic the voters would have forgotten the benefits Bush's steel tarifs would give them by the election too.

	03-04-2002 20:16									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GP huh? restate.

The main reason why the large international ag corps can squeeze out local growers is subsidies. That's how they can sell cheap. When you said it's dumping, you are right. The problem with dumping is it is unfair competition. In this case, if there is no subsidy the ag businesses may actually need to sell their food in a range where the local growers can compete.

	04-04-2002 07:33									#114
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The subsidies represent a wealth transfer from the orignating countires tax payers to the recieving coutnries consumers. Imagine if it were a 100% subsidy. Of course this harms the local growers, but for the recieving coutnry overall, it is always good to get goods at a lower price...