01-04-2002 18:22									#61
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--"Argh! You beat me to it!"



--"From First Contact:"

That explains it. Generations was such a craptacular outing that I haven't bothered to actually watch any of the later movies. I've had them running on cable in the background, but the bits I paid attention to weren't good enough to get me to watch.

--"I may be mistaken, but wasn't that a prototype ship, and not one actually in service?"

I'm fairly sure they entered service, but I'm not finding much canonical info on them, so it's hard to say.

--"*adds Star Trek geeks to my block list*"

Woo-hoo! Block puzzle! It's pushin' time!

Wraith
I don't work here. I'm a consultant.

	01-04-2002 18:58									#62
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quote: That explains it. Generations was such a craptacular outing that I haven't bothered to actually watch any of the later movies. I've had them running on cable in the background, but the bits I paid attention to weren't good enough to get me to watch.

Generations did suck, but First Contact was a very good movie, even for non star trek fans. The new Enterprise (NCC 1701-E) is a Sovereign class starship, and in the battle with the Borg you can also see Akira and Steamrunner (among others) class starships in action, as well as the USS Defiant (captained by Worf).

quote: I'm fairly sure they entered service, but I'm not finding much canonical info on them, so it's hard to say.

As of yet, I can only find fan-made stuff about it. Startrek.com also doesn't list it. The picture attached here is suposedly of the Excalibur class, though it seems very unfamiliar to me.

	01-04-2002 20:20									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Case *adds Star Trek geeks to my block list* Serb, you've definetly got a point this time. While this poll is centred on WW2 era ships, there's no doubt that the Kirov class ships were the best battleships built. I'd definetly back a Kirov, with it's heavy defences and long ranged missiles against a modified Iowa

Kirov class was quite a good ship. However, it was a missile cruiser, most definitely not a battleship. They are designated as RKR - Raketny Kreysers. Ditto the Salva (Moskva) Class ROCKET CRUISERS.
Not a battleship. If we were to call "battleships" all surface combatants, then we would be including cruisers, destroyers, frigates, corvettes and carriers. This is clearly not what the topic is about.

Outside of the battleships, the Kirov class is "...the largest non-aviation surface warships in service in the world. Once thought of as the world's most powerful, this thinking has changed somewhat with recent problems with their propulsion plants and needed redundancy in the electronics because of numerous failures."

They do have the advantage over the battleship in that they are nuclear powered, and thus their range is unlimited if resupplied.

And I wouldn't like their chances up against a US carrier battlegroup with a couple of the later Nimitz class carriers, an Iowa, several Ticonderega class guided missile cruisers, several Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyers, several Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates, and a couple of Seawolf and Los Angeles Class fast attack submarines.
They are just outnumbered and outgunned, regardless of how blinded you want to be by national pride.

	01-04-2002 23:14									#64
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I think it is permissable to regard the Kirovs as being basically the same thing as Battle Cruisers. They seem to have been built with the same basic role in mind----to kill enemy cruisers/carriers with long range weapons. How the Soviets expected to get within range of American carrier groups is beyond me. But that seems to have been their designed role.

quote: You seem to missed the real point to my post. The accident was not the point. It was the old powder. It decreased the ships accuracy. I mentioned the rest to show that the powder was old. The Navy had repacked the bags with extra pellets tossed in on top as was shown in the second accident investigation.

Yes, you're right. This is the primary reason for the Iowas' lousy accuracy off Vieques and in Lebanon. But the Iowa still did not have the capability to correct the fall of shot using radar measurement in real time in the 1940's.

But.

After considering this, I should state it is true that Iowa did not have to correct it's aim by observation. Iowas did have some degree of blind fire capability and if you are willing to to simply fire on radar solution without correction, then you can indeed fire at full speed at long range.

But high speed fire at long range simply would not be much of an advantage. At 35,000 yards any hit is a good hit. Iowa could quite literally run through her entire supply of shells without hitting once. Even if she does hit, then does it really matter if she hits after 20 minutes instead of 30?

	01-04-2002 23:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Khan Singh I think it is permissable to regard the Kirovs as being basically the same thing as Battle Cruisers. They seem to have been built with the same basic role in mind----to kill enemy cruisers/carriers with long range weapons. How the Soviets expected to get within range of American carrier groups is beyond me. But that seems to have been their designed role.

Indeed, and like the battlecruisers themselves, a flawed concept that was never properly put to practice.

	02-04-2002 02:15									#66
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I agree. They were of no naval value.

You have to think that they existed solely to show the flag in exotic overseas ports. The Soviets knew that they couldn't build a bigger carrier than the US, so they built the world's most powerful cruiser as cheaper way to impress the natives.

	02-04-2002 02:29									#67
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quote: Beware, Russians are coming!!! The largest and the most powerfull battleship of all times....... the flagman of Russian Northern fleet. Here it comes.... Petr Velikiy!!! VITAL STATISTICS DISPLACEMENT: 24,300 tons, 28,300 tons (full load) ARMAMENT: 20 x SS-N-19 Shipwreck (Granit) SSM (range 300 nm); 1 x 2 SS- N- 14 Silex (Rastub) ASW missile (range 30 nm); 12 x SA-N-6 (96 total) Grumble (Fort) SAM (range 60 nm, up to 90,000 feet in altitude); 12 x SA-N-4 (40 total) Gecko (Osa-M) SAM (range 6 nm, up to 80,000 feet); 2 x 1 3.9 inch (100 mm) DP guns (range 4.8 km); 8 x 1 AK-630M gatling gun AA CIWS (range 4-5 km); 2 x 5 533 mm torpedo tubes (20 torpedoes; 1 RBU-6000 (Smerch-2) ASW position (96 rockets); 2 RBU-1000 (Smerch-3) ASW positions (72 rockets); 2 KA-27 PL Helix ASW helicopters; 1 KA-25RT Hormone-B SSM guidance helicopter; PERFORMANCE: 140,000 shp, 2 nuclear reactors, 2 steam plants, 32 kts (17 kts steam only); 14,000 nm range Beware of Russian Carrier Killer.

The Kirov, Gorshkov, Kiev, Petr Velikiy, and the other Russian capital ships are mere cruisers. They are all smaller then the Iowas, and indeed, not much bigger then the Virginia Class nuclear powered missile cruisers, (CGNs). In fact, the Petr Velikiy is not even finished, it is still in Severomorsk awaiting completion.

Steele

	02-04-2002 03:10									#68
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Nice looking ships, though.

And I have to admit that they could probably cripple an Iowa, if they happened to get into range. Russian missile technology should not be under-rated, even given their current economic problems.

Last edited by Khan Singh on 02-04-2002 at 05:34

	02-04-2002 05:38									#69
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quote: Nice looking ships, though.

That they are. Especially so with the nuclear reactors.

But don't be so sure about them taking down an Iowa. An Iowa would likely have an AEGIS (at least one) for escort, and could itself shoot down any cruise missiles which got through the cruiser. In addition, whats to stop the Iowa from firing its own missiles and cannons?

Steele

	02-04-2002 06:17									#70
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I'm voting for the Bismarck. Even though she was outclassed by later-built ships, she was unequalled in her day. Her domination is evidenced by the fact that it took a beefed-up Home Fleet to track her down and sink her. I know of no other battleship which became the target of an entire fleet.

	02-04-2002 06:37									#71
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Stupid Trekking Battleships......

Give me 40K tech....

	02-04-2002 06:42									#72
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Bismark did a very effective job against Hood and Prince of Wales.

On the other hand she was crippled by an open-cockpit biplane which couldn't keep up with the traffic on today's autobahn.

quote: An Iowa would likely have an AEGIS (at least one) for escort, and could itself shoot down any cruise missiles which got through the cruiser. In addition, whats to stop the Iowa from firing its own missiles and cannons?

Mmm, well, Aegis is not invincible, especially against sea skimming targets. The Kirov has long range and the Russians actually have warheads and targeting that could defeat Iowa's armor. But maybe you're right. I'm not really sure. I guess I'd rather be on Iowa than on any other ship with incoming missiles.

	02-04-2002 09:24									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Khan Singh Which ship is it at Suisun Bay?

It is the USS Iowa BB-61, I have the newpaper in my hand. It came through the Carquinez Strait (where Mare Island Naval Shipyard is) Saturday April 21, 2001.

	02-04-2002 09:28									#74
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc That they are. Especially so with the nuclear reactors. But don't be so sure about them taking down an Iowa. An Iowa would likely have an AEGIS (at least one) for escort, and could itself shoot down any cruise missiles which got through the cruiser. In addition, whats to stop the Iowa from firing its own missiles and cannons? Steele

Actually the US could build a BBGN-??. A guided Missile Battlewagon with maybe one gun forward and aft. Look at how many missile it would hold.

	02-04-2002 12:26									#75
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quote: BBGN

A Battleship with guided missiles, and a nuclear plant? Thats what the "N" would mean.

Not that it would be entirely useless, but the CGs, CGNs and DDGNs already do that job, and can carry a few missiles themselvs, and are (relatively) cheap.

Steele

	02-04-2002 12:39									#76
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Perhaps a modern ship designed to replace the bombardment capability of the battleship could mount a truly huge gun rather than a large number of big guns. I'm not sure how feasible it would be, but it seems like you could fit one of those supercannons (like Sadaam's Canadian designer came up with) fixed forward on a large hull. The gun would be able to adjust laterally a bit, but the idea would be to use the recoil to push down against the sea and either forward or backward along the ship's course. These sorts of ships could strike a long way off, staying in blue water and reaching far inland.

	02-04-2002 12:40									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Simon Darkshade And I wouldn't like their chances up against a US carrier battlegroup with a couple of the later Nimitz class carriers, an Iowa, several Ticonderega class guided missile cruisers, several Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyers, several Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates, and a couple of Seawolf and Los Angeles Class fast attack submarines.

Why do you think any ship could stand alone against the fleet such as you described? Why do you think that this ship should attack entire group alone?

Btw, Khrushev was right.

	02-04-2002 12:46									#78
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc In fact, the Petr Velikiy is not even finished, it is still in Severomorsk awaiting completion. Steele

You have very old sources.
It was constructed in 1995 and in full service in Russian fleet since 1996, even more it is the flagman ship of Northern fleet. Today we have 4 battle cruisers of 'Kirov' class.
And in fight of 1 ship against 1 ship Iowa has no chances against him at all, IMHO.

	02-04-2002 13:05									#79
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DP

	02-04-2002 13:06									#80
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Serb: The Petr Velikiy was added to the fleet in 1995. On October 27 1996, a turbine exploded, killing five crewmen. The ship was returned to Severomorsk, partial repairs were done, and the ship went on sea trials until 1998. Then he returned to Severomorsk awaiting completion of the repairs. Unfortunatly (as he is a fine ship) the ship is still there, as there is no funding for the work that needs to be done.

Yes, an Iowa would have quite a chance against a Kirov cruiser. First of all, its much bigger, more heavily armored, and much more able to withstand damage. In fact, it would take a good number of missiles to put a battlewagon to sleep. Second, the Iowa is faster (33 knots to 30 knots). Third, the Iowa carries more missiles then the Kirov ships. The Kirov carries 20 SS-N-19 Shipwreck missiles, while the Iowas carry 32 RGM-74 Tomahawk and 16 RGM-84 Harpoon missiles. Fourth, the Iowa has guns. Big guns. 16", 2700 pound (1300 kg) shells traveling at 2,000 feet per second (600 meters per second) will put a big hole in almost anything. Fifth, the Iowa has the same high quality damage control that the US Navy is the best at.

Steele

	02-04-2002 13:08									#81
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EDIT: he fixed it...

	02-04-2002 13:09									#82
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Fixed what?

Steele

	02-04-2002 13:10									#83
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60/600. Useful for those who've forgotten the archaic system one country still uses...

	02-04-2002 13:12									#84
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It was a typo. I have lots of them, as I type too fast. I try to correct them as I'm going, but...


Steele

	02-04-2002 13:21									#85
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It was repaired long ago. The incedent you've talked about done very slight damage. It was explosion of a small part of back-up power system. And this ship as I said in full service. It was in Kursk's resque team, and later patrol the area where it happen until Kursk was up.

	02-04-2002 13:54									#86
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc Third, the Iowa carries more missiles then the Kirov ships. The Kirov carries 20 SS-N-19 Shipwreck missiles, while the Iowas carry 32 RGM-74 Tomahawk and 16 RGM-84 Harpoon missiles. Fourth, the Iowa has guns. Big guns. 16", 2700 pound (1300 kg) shells traveling at 2,000 feet per second (600 meters per second) will put a big hole in almost anything. Fifth, the Iowa has the same high quality damage control that the US Navy is the best at. Steele

Just say it to designers of "Petr Velikiy".
The guys who created this ship still think that: "Piotr Veliky" cruiser - is a unique floating nuclear-missile base with the most powerful armament in the world.
Official site of the manufacturer:
http://www.bz.ru/e031_005.htm
I am sure they will be quite interested to know your version of results of the fight between 'Kirov' and 'Iowa'.

	02-04-2002 14:07									#87
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quote: It was repaired long ago. The incedent you've talked about done very slight damage. It was explosion of a small part of back-up power system. And this ship as I said in full service. It was in Kursk's resque team, and later patrol the area where it happen until Kursk was up.

I did not know that. Thanks.

Perhaps you did not know that the Admiral Ushakov (the former Kirov) and the Admiral Lazarev (former Frunze) have been returned to Severomorsk and the Lazarev is being scrapped. That leaves you with three ships, one disactivated.

RE: The manufacturer's site, that doesn't say a thing I can find about the ships armament. And in any case, the ships with the most powerful armament are missile submarines, and American aircraft carriers, both of which can deliver nuclear warheads anywhere in the world. That site looks more like an advertisement for people needing a shipyard then an analysis of ship-to-ship combat.

The Iowa would win.

Steele

	02-04-2002 15:04									#88
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc Perhaps you did not know that the Admiral Ushakov (the former Kirov) and the Admiral Lazarev (former Frunze) have been returned to Severomorsk and the Lazarev is being scrapped. That leaves you with three ships, one disactivated.

It's under repair now, it was in service since 1984 so it's relatively old ship. But the government finally decided to repair it, instead of scrapping. Soon it will be in service again.

quote: RE: The manufacturer's site, that doesn't say a thing I can find about the ships armament.

Unfortunatly, all links I've found about armament are on Russian.

quote: And in any case, the ships with the most powerful armament are missile submarines, and American aircraft carriers, both of which can deliver nuclear warheads anywhere in the world.

The ICBMs could do this as well.

quote: The Iowa would win.

Not a chance.

	02-04-2002 15:33									#89
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quote: It's under repair now, it was in service since 1984 so it's relatively old ship. But the government finally decided to repair it, instead of scrapping. Soon it will be in service again.

Do you have a source for this? The latest information I have found (December 2001) says that is is being taken apart right now.

ICBMs are not fitted to ships. My point was that it is impossible to make a blanket statement like "most powerful armament in the world" especially when it is wrong. The Iowa ships carry more missiles (more then 2x as many) then the Kirov ships, and the 16"/50 cannon which are incredibly powerful on their own.

Steele