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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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BW:
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Just because I have certain superstitions doesn't make me ignorant or stupid LR no matter "WHAT STUDIES SHOW". |
I never said you were, I was just talking about what some studies said concerning general american's, if you read that as saying "Black Widow is stupid" then perhaps you are just expressing some insecurity about your own beliefs and/or capabilities. 
quote:
i was raised from a long line of Native American Medicine Women who do the tea leaves and the raw egg cleanings...so my beliefs are based on the enviroment in which I was raised. |
Implying what? How does that effect the truth value of what you believe in any way? If I was raised in a family that had a long line of racist ideology, does that mean that such a belief is therefore automatically entitled to respect? Not really. 
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Every culture has there own belief system, and these studies are not based on me...so therefore they do not apply If you want to be classifed by a text book study that is your deal. |
 I have no idea of what you are talking about. If you mean that the studies do not apply to you for some reason (of course there are always exceptions to these stats) that's your belief.
If however you are saying that these studies do not apply at all (are inaccurate) or do not apply to you because "every culture has a belief system" then you are wrong. That just does not follow via standard logic.
Every culture has a belief system therefore those studies are not applicable.
How does that make sense?
You have to do more to refute these studies than say "every culture has their own beliefs": you have to actually look at them and point out holes in the research or conduct your own research. Sure every culture has their own beliefs but it does not mean all these beliefs are equal or that they are not applicable to statistical study.
If that were true then you'd be contradicting yourself by writing your post. (Who are you to say my belief that these statistics are applicable is wrong? I mean isn't that my belief?)
You'd also be saying that Nazi beliefs should be respected due to the fact that it sprang from culture. That sort of thinking is simplistic, illogical and absurd.
In other words: if you feel somehow threatened by this study and wish to say its wrong, you have to do more than bring up your mommy. You have to actually look at the data and refute it in an empirical mathematical way. If you cannot or will not the best course of action for you is to swallow your pride and not comment. Thanx. 
Tia:
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mm...well I am educated, college to be exact have my degree, was raised in the church, and my parents and family are very, very wealthy and we live comfortably......so........ |
First of that is, even taken at face value a refutation via hasty generalization.
That's like me saying "well you say most birds can fly, I know of one born with a messed up wing that can't: therefore your generalization that birds can fly is wrong". Such an argument does not hold water since these stats involve generalizations not absolutes, in which case a few exceptions are to be expected and thus a few exceptions do not disprove the generalization.
Also you make the following errors in thought
1) That coming from a welathy family means you live comfortably.
This is wrong because your family may not support you now. In which case you will be poor. You may have suffered other bad experiences(being deformed, growing up as a black man in a racist society, medical problems) in your life which would make you downtrodden despite having a rich family. You can say you live comfortably, but that is just your opinion. I have reason to believe otherwise.
2) Going to college automatically makes you an educated person.
This is simply not true, though the rule does hold generally. People who go to college often specialize in learning in a single field, this leaves them ignorant of a great many other things in other fields. Also a person who has once went to college may forget what they have learned, not paid attention in class etc. The college also may have been a poorer one. Anyone can go to college, a future professor, a wife to be, the shoeshine boy next door, but not all will learn an equal amount.
3) I was raised in a church.
This has nothing to do with what I said and I don't know why you even brought it up. Instead of refuting the statistics, you merely place in some irrelevant information which seems to do nothing more than confuse the issue.
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I believe what I believe by my choice. I have studied with different groups before making my choice. I am superstitious about many different things. |
Well that's nice but again irrelevant. What do you mean by "I studied groups". So what?((again a shoeshine boy can do that) If you study nothing but groups that support superstitions then it's irelevant as your views are just slanted and I would say based on ignorance (since I don't count knowledge based on superstitions as real knowledge). i.e. studying the viewpoint of ignorant groups makes you no more knowledgable. Studying overly biased groups makes you no more credible. (This last point is most important as when people say "I studied many people's opinions" they are usually trying to attain some credibility via being impartial and knowledgeable.).
But in any case, BW and Janie, I do not think of you as examples of educated or in any way credible people. If anything your being superstitious makes me put more confidence in Shermer's statistic, not less. And your comments on this subject are about as trustworthy as Kaak's comments on homosexuality. It is clear to me that your have no idea of what a generalization is, let alone, how to properly refute one. I suggest you at least look at the studies I mentioned, which come from a very reliable and respected source, before making some rash, and off-the wall comments of your own.
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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
In other words: if you feel somehow threatened by this study and wish to say its wrong, you have to do more than bring up your mommy. You have to actually look at the data and refute it in an empirical mathematical way. If you cannot or will not the best course of action for you is to swallow your pride and not comment. |
1) Statistics on a group is close to irrelevant for a single of its members, unless you are in a 99.9% or better confidence range. I doubt any statistics on superstition could come into this region, and if alone for the lack of a sharp definition of (un)educated.
2) In a well-made statistics the group on which it is based on should be clearly defined. So it would be the task of Logical to post a description of the group this study is based on (including cultural background), and for Blackwidow to show if or if not she belongs to this group.
3) An educated person in European context and an educated person in native American context is something entirely different. A statistics ignoring this difference would be a bad statistics.
Summary: Unless you thoroughly look at the statistics, the claim that it applies to BlackWidow is equally weak as the claim that it doesn't.
quote:
Its also interesting to note that while about 30 percent of scientists believe in God, about 94 percent of the top scientists do not believe in God. Or other superstitions for that matter. |
What I usually hear instead (e.g. why it came to the big bang, what is consciousness etc.) is so highly speculative that a claim that "Jesus is risen from the dead" is pure reason.
They completely ignore the existence of a first- and a third-person view. Often they admit the existance of the first-person view verbally but in their arguments they ignore it. Consciousness is purely first-person. Science is purely third-person. There is no way to cross. First-person views is the only thing I know. Cogito ergo sum - I think therefore I am (Descartes). Trying to get any proof on any third-person view, Descartes used a classical circular argument: I've got the notion of God, God doesn't cheat me, therefore God exists. (God doesn't cheat me, therefore the rest of the world exists, too).
I've never seen a valid proof of consciousness by science, I doubt it's necessary for survival. For survival you have to act suitably in (almost) every situation. You don't have to be conscious of the fact that you do. You even don't have to be conscious of the fact that you remember something.
Taken that a too strong belief in logics is also a superstition, the sum of superstitions is constant.
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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Mr. Fun:quote:
Racist ideology is based on misconceptions of race that has the potential to lead to harmful action, or wrongful behavior towards other people.
Blackwidow is talking about legitimate aspects of a culture. |
Actually racism is a strong part of certain cultures, misconceptions can be cultural. I would say likewise the idea of faith healing, the likes of which Widow talks about, are based on misconceptions about medicine....that make it not part of culture?
Also what makes a cultural practice(in this case a belief) legitimate? Evidence does. There is as much evidence for spiritual healing as there is for racist ideology.
Kaak: Your criticisms matter less than that of an eight year old's. Because even one that young (my little brother) can see through Baptist myth.
Adalbertus:
I never tried to apply Shermer's stats to individuals. So that criticism is beside the point. It does encompass individuals though, and I'd say that it does so with Widow and Janie. Not because you can predict such things via statistic, but because, from what I know of their character and reasoning skills, they seem ignorant. And must have a poor quality of life to spend as much time on harassing others like they do.
In regard to point three, you are advocating that both educational systems are equal, from a logical and scientific point of view, they are not.
On your points concerning the big bang and consciusness, those things are not as much a matter of faith as the big bang. There is hard evidence for both. The fact that you say both are equal matters of speculation tells me you know very little on both subjects. I suggest you read some Stephen Hawkings, Richard Dawkins and Steven Pinker (cognitive scientist) before commenting further. In regards to Desartes notion I suggest you read my post on "Questions for creationist", it should be on the last page or second to the last.
Also keep in mind that you are not attacking MY criticisms but Shermer's. I don't have the books with me, I in fact read them at the library so lack access to the figures. I suggest that if you wish to make a proper criticism you go to the source. Thanx.
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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
I never tried to apply Shermer's stats to individuals. |
It looked very much like this.
quote:
In regard to point three, you are advocating that both educational systems are equal, from a logical and scientific point of view, they are not. |
No, I didn't do that. I was pointing out that the notion of being educated is very subjective to the cultural context. I never claimed that educated in a native American context means high skills in logic or science. These are quite specifically western categories (even if now also adopted by Chinese/Japanese culture).
quote:
Also keep in mind that you are not attacking MY criticisms but Shermer's. |
I don't know anything of Shermer except what you've posted (and which contains a description and not a criticism). What I'm critizising is that you try to apply an investigation which probably(because it is usually unless stated otherwise) is about "educated" in the Western sense to people who, as they post, have roots in both, Western and Native American culture. And this without clarifying that the description by Shermer applies to such people.
Sorry, would like to reply to the Descartes thing too, but I'm too pressed ATM. Sunday, hopefully. (remind me, if I don't post).
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Kaak
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i assure you, my dear friend, that i am old enough to form my own opinions :P
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
No, I didn't do that. I was pointing out that the notion of being educated is very subjective to the cultural context. I never claimed that educated in a native American context means high skills in logic or science. These are quite specifically western categories (even if now also adopted by Chinese/Japanese culture). |
I would say then that not educational systems are equal. Western culture produces people who can design working airplanes and medicenes. Shaministic cultures only produce "Medicine Women" who advocate the use of quack remedies. If your child or spouse was terminally ill, would you go to a faith-healer or a doctor? If you did the former I'd accuse you of abuse. So lets just hope that you really don't believe its subjective and pick the latter. (Note that both of the above choices involve Western culture)
quote:
What I'm critizising is that you try to apply an investigation which probably (because it is usually unless stated otherwise) is about "educated" in the Western sense to people who, as they post, have roots in both, Western and Native American culture. |
I'm saying that being educated in the Native American sense is irrelevant. I don't count knowledge of quackery as legitamite knowledge. If you wish to criticize, tell me how you can then criticize Western culture's inter-cultural idea of education and place the more realitivistic culture-determined definition of educated ahead of it, since that would merely be putting one culture's standards of education above another's, even within your own system? In other words, who are you to say that Western culture is wrong in applying its standards of education to other cultures?
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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BW quote:
LR let's not make this thread into something it is not. I was not saying that what you believe is wrong I was merely saying that your trolling attack against my character was wrong |
What are you talking about? I never said those statistics applied to you. All I said was what studies show. You got overly defensive when I said that, saying things like
quote:
Just because I have certain superstitions doesn't make me ignorant or stupid LR no matter "WHAT STUDIES SHOW". |
followed by a friendly
quote:
If you want to be classifed by a text book study that is your deal. |
You imply that I somehow tried to prove that you are ignorant by using these statistics. No such luck. I never did any such thing, you just started attacking my character for no apparent reason. If anyone is making this thread into something it's not: It's you, lady.
All I did, was clear up the fact that I wasn't trying to use the stats to prove anything about you.
quote:
I am not stupid nor uneducated. |
Well I disagree. I do so, not, on the basis of Shermer's statistics but on the basis of personal observation. So it's all good.
quote:
And people are very much a product of their environments therefore family life will and does have a great impact on a growing child's outlook on life. |
I agree, but the point is irrelevant in regards to your character or the statistic, As adopting a belief you were raised on has no bearing on whether you are educated or ignorant. 
quote:
Read my post again and you will see I was neither attacking your belief nor disagreeing with it, i was letting you know that despite what studies say they do not apply to my situation. |
What are you talking about? Where did I ever say those stats apply to you? Your "letting me know" followed by your telling me I can go be a "textbook study" was unwarranted and overly defensive....and yes, it did very much look like you were attempting to discredit the stats by holding yourself up as a counter- example,and paying some lip service to ancestry. (Which is why I put the "IF you are trying to refute these stats" statement down.)
Most of it though, again, was clearing up the fact that I was NOT using the stats to try and prove anything about you. Why don't you read my posts before throwing out these empty criticisms.
I personally do think the stats do apply to you btw, not because the stats hold any predictive power over individuals but because of what I have seen in your posts.
quote:
And guys, I am not looking any statics up on superstions and the people who believe in them..that is just..for a lack of a better word "RETARDED" |
 Whoa! You must have taken the little bus to school.
Last edited by Logical Realist on 07-04-2002 at 17:21
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Blackwidow24
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and the center of your universe
Jun 2000
time: 05:18
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LR..you continue to bully my thread no matter how kosher I am to you .. WILL YOU EVER Just drop your holier than thou attitude and move on. If you haven't noticed you continually ramble on about the same inane bullshit over and over...GET OVER YOURSELF....and stop putting people down ..you want me to attack your character?? OKAY I SHALL!!
You are over zealous about your florid vocabulary..nobody cares about what you post.. You are self centered and vicious.
To me it's seems like you have nothing better to do than be childish and trivial with your time..
** and darling I have observed first handed that you are quite the PHSYCO, with your threats and banter about causing harm to people who you don't even know..also the fact that you claim to be IN LOVE with a person you have only been in physical contact with ONCE..( Coo- Coo) ** ( no disrespect intended to you DM, I am just tired of his stupidity)
You go into a philosophical frenzy when you feel you are being attacked by another...In my opinion you are mental and quite angry. You have a WHOLE LOT TO SAY, but it's always the SAME DAMN THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN..**plese make him stop*****
it becomes SOOOOOOO monotonous everyone can already guess what your long winded rantings are about, I don't bother to read the whole thing anymore i kinda just skim the page. You are crazy ..you know it I know it and frankly little boy, I don't give a damn how smart you are...because you obviously lack any common sense and SOCIAL skills which is exactly what a person needs to function in this world..... So if you don't mind i shall continue not to like and ignore you...BUH BYE!
*turns off LR long winded whiny mode*
Last edited by Blackwidow24 on 09-04-2002 at 00:38
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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BW:
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LR..you continue to bully my thread no matter how kosher I am to you |
I have never "bullied" your thread, I have just posted some info. Try actually reading the posts. And btw, calling me a "textbook study" and calling my suggestion "retarded" isn't very "kosher".
quote:
.. WILL YOU EVER Just drop your holier than thou attitude and move on. |
Only if you cease your *****ery.
quote:
If you haven't noticed you continually ramble on about the same inane bullshit over and over |
Look who's talking.
I mean, its not like your exactly known for your modesty and undestanding.
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...GET OVER YOURSELF |
After you.
quote:
....and stop putting people down |
rofl. Why don't you go sit in a corner and think about what you just said.
quote:
..you want me to attack your character?? |
Why would I want you to do that?
Thanx for asking.
quote:
You are over zealous about your florid vocabulary |
It's only "florid" to a lil halfwit like yourself. BTW, nice choice of words.
quote:
..nobody cares about what you post. |
Well you certainly seem to.
quote:
. You are self centered and vicious. |
Well I guess your the expert on that aren't ya.
quote:
To me it's seems like you have nothing better to do than be childish and trivial with your time.. |
Oh that totally different from what you do. :rollseyes:
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** and darling I have observed first handed that you are quite the PHYSCO |
Wow, a physco eh? Your a regular cognitive scientist aren't you? Move over Steven Pinker!
I never made any threats.
quote:
and banter about causing harm to people who you don't even know |
I did this when and to whom?
quote:
..also the fact that you claim to be IN LOVE with a person you have only been in physical contact with ONCE. |
Well I have talked to DM over the phone and internet for several months and admire her character. Love's not something you need to do research on lady.
.quote:
( Coo- koo) ** ( no disrespect intended to you DM, I am just tired of his stupidity) |
Oh, you just insulted her boyfriend and dissed her on ffz. I'm sure she's totally "koo" with you.
quote:
You go into a philosophical frenzy when you feel you are being attacked by another |
Well, yeah. I analyze their position in a reasonable, mature way. Especially when the discussion is about philosophy. I guess you see that as a flaw though.
quote:
...In my opinion you are mental and quite angry. |
Well that breaks my heart. :tear:
quote:
You have a WHOLE LOT TO SAY, but it's always the SAME DAMN THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. |
And over and over and over again?It's called consistency, something I would never accuse you of.
.quote:
**plese make him stop***** |
Crying out to the crowd I see. And btw it's "please" not "plese", I just hope I don't sound too "florid" to a mentally handicapped person like yourself.
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it becomes SOOOOOOO monotonous everyone can already guess what your long winded rantings are about, |
Is that all you could muster? Do my posts go that far over your head?
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I don't bother to read the whole thing anymore i kinda just skim the page. |
Wow and I thought I was cool.
BW- ph.d-psychology
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..you know it I know it |
And I know that you know that I know that you know.
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and frankly little boy |
Little? Guess I am compared to your fat ass.
, quote:
I don't give a damn how smart you are |
Smart? Well you said it, not me.
quote:
...because you obviously lack any common sense and SOCIAL skills |
Kinda like a native americanmedicine woman.
BTW I have the mad skillz yo. Enough to diss prove a foo like yo-self. :hand in your face:
quote:
which is exactly what a person needs to function in this world |
So your a sociologist too.
Sorry though, if I don't think you set the standards for "this world".
.quote:
.... So if you don't mind i shall continue not to like and ignore you |
Way ahead of you in the dislike department.
But "continuing" to ignore me? You aren't fooling anybody there.
quote:
*turns off LR long winded whiny mode* |
Oh, you were just copying me! Wow! that makes your post soooo much more mature. I guess you weren't just flaming after all.
Learn to excercise your imagination because your insults belie any ounce of creativity that you might possess. Also I would working on your fabricating your justifications. Cause you aren't tricking anyone.
Widow you as far as I can tell, possess no admirable traits whatsoever. You are not honest, you are not loyal and you are not even reasonable.
Proven by the facts that 1) You stabbed your best friend Janie in the back, by getting her into a HUGE argument with DM, just because you were jealous of their friendship. There goes loyalty.
2) You lie about me making threats, delete posts so that you can hide your vicous attacks and contradict yourself on a daily basis. There goes honesty.
3) You are superstitious as hell. There goes rationality.
In fact the only thing you seem to be good at is idle chatter and *****ery. That's about it. Which makes you lower than a dog, since dogs at least have loyalty.
You mean nothing to me, and though I haven't met you IRL, I already know enough to dislike you. All I can say is that you should go back to your twinkies and healing crystals, and quite making these personal attacks just because you disagree with my pov. Thanx.
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
I think LR is in denial...hmmmmmm |
Its more like you are just making stuff up.
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LR..how quickley you forget your faults...i guess you forgot threatening to rape someones mother
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Umm when did I ever say this? I asked you all for proof of that, a quote, anything. Never got it. I said "screw mom by invitation". That hardly sounds like rape. Even a neanderthall like you should be able to firgure that out.
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being happy that another miscarried their unborn child |
You started tossing the dirty stuff first by calling DM "loose." Besides, how is that a threat
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Me thinks he has a short D*** as well as a short memory... |
Only compared to some of the ones that have been up your skank ass.
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Oh is Dm really that much of an Idiot, to actually think Tia was Ever her friend Dm is certainly smarter than you my dear tart. |
That proves it...you ARE delusional. DM and Tia were PMing eachother on a regular basis and even offered eachother advice on different things. Both would joke about Chris together all the time. Sounds like a friendship to me. The fact that you deny it, even now, shows how deluded you are.
quote:
Guess what LR I never said anything that Tia didn't want me to say...every time I came to her defense it was because she asked me to..so there goes your stupid loyalty theory
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Yeah right. That's why she asked you to cool it. You have serious problems lady.
quote:
And you my dear are lucky ANYBODY wants you |
As are you, seeing as everyone's probably already tapped your skank ass. Honestly do any people find your fat body pretty? Is your intellect that stunning? What about your integrity?
I respect the kindness of any man who has the patience to put up with you. Maybe he likes retards or something.
The rest of your post can be summarized as "grow hair, grow balls, shut up! and a rip off my material". To which I can reply: only in your wet dreams skank!
Your just proving to everyone more and more, Widow, that you're an idiot. Do you even know why you started this? What was the point? To be on the losing side of a flame war?
Gawd! You really need to grow up, accept the fact that for a while Tia liked DM more than you (which is evident, if by nothing else, your overeacting to the suggestion). And that even though I can't compare to the twelve inchers that ripped apart your fat ass, I don't care.
Seriously though penis insults are an obvious sign of desperation. Especially when written in the "I'm pissed off" style which you wrote it. As is just about everything else you said.
Just admit to the facts: I posted a piece of info. You overeacted. I clarified, you started freaking out.
Please try to pay attention to something else, besides those godamn twinkies your gulping down and actually evaluate what is going on.
Your idiocy is amazing. Please go back to elementary school so that you can learn some manners from your intellectual supperiors. Lates.
Last edited by Logical Realist on 09-04-2002 at 08:11
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