03-04-2002 18:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney If the company in question where to hire the best person for the next job that came up regardless of race or gender then eventually you should see a fair representation of blacks etc. in the company. It would take longer but it would be through a fair and equitable system which is what we all want after all.

The inequality is there in the first place because of racial prejudices. Just look at some of the posters on this list. There are minority who are blatently racist, but more damaging are the greater number of people who still believe that some races are somewhat inferior.

If nothing is done then the situation will never change.

The racist hiring manager will always claim he made the hiring decision based on merit, but what is really happening is these some managers look at a black person (or whatever racial background)and think "he's not quite as good as the white guys cause black (or whatever racial background)."

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all managers are like this, but in this day and age, if a company has significant racial or gender inequality then you have to wonder about the racial attitudes of the managers.

Under your system, we will have discrimination against groups for decades if not centuries, if ever. AA is a racially based system, but we will reach equality faster.

Let's also not forget that under your system, the racist manager never hires a black person. Under AA, the manager is only required to some blacks for some jobs. There are still many jobs available for whites so whites really don't suffer.

The choice is long-term complete discrimination without a guarantee of equality or short-term, limited discrimination in a quick step to equality.

	03-04-2002 20:11									#32
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Just as in the animal and plant kingdoms where there are superior and inferior strains of any given species, there are superior and inferior strains within humanity (not confined to any particular race).

Races are groups of people who are obviously more closely related (genetically) to each other than to those outside their racial group. Because of this there are traits which can be generally assigned to different racial groups. Not everyone within the groups will have these traits, but the majority will have them in varying degrees.

Individuals cannot be judged according to their race, but racial groups that have varying degrees of success in building a civilization can be said to have a superior or inferior civilization.

	03-04-2002 20:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The inequality is there in the first place because of racial prejudices. Just look at some of the posters on this list. There are minority who are blatently racist, but more damaging are the greater number of people who still believe that some races are somewhat inferior.

I'm not aware of any racists on this board 'blatent' or otherwise, maybe you could point them out?

I agree that the current situation is largely to do with racial prejudice and lack of opportunity for certain sections of society. But I fail to see how swapping inequality from one group to another solves anything.

Equality of opportunity and a level playing field sound fair enough to me.

quote: If nothing is done then the situation will never change.

How is creating a level playing field doing nothing?

quote: The racist hiring manager will always claim he made the hiring decision based on merit, but what is really happening is these some managers look at a black person (or whatever racial background)and think "he's not quite as good as the white guys cause black (or whatever racial background)."

A racist hiring manager could be any colour.

quote: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all managers are like this, but in this day and age, if a company has significant racial or gender inequality then you have to wonder about the racial attitudes of the managers.

I think to assume that managers are racist is a bit much, I'm sure there are racist managers, of all colours, but I think that they are few in number.

quote: Under your system, we will have discrimination against groups for decades if not centuries, if ever. AA is a racially based system, but we will reach equality faster.

Are you saying that with a level playing blacks couldn't succeed, and they need a leg up to compete? Personally I feel confident that with a level playing black people would be able to achieve as much as whites.

quote: Let's also not forget that under your system, the racist manager never hires a black person. Under AA, the manager is only required to some blacks for some jobs. There are still many jobs available for whites so whites really don't suffer.

All racists managers are white?

That is utter bollocks and you know it. How can you justify racial discrimination against whites?

Using that logic you could argue that black people don't suffer from discrimination.

quote: The choice is long-term complete discrimination without a guarantee of equality or short-term, limited discrimination in a quick step to equality.

("Gonna do thing my way
It's my way,
My way or the highway!")

	03-04-2002 20:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara For example, suppose you have a particular speicies of frog. Over time, it expands around a large lake. Over time, subtle variations show up between frogs on one side of the lake versus frogs on the other side. They are still the same species, however; the two types of frogs won't mate. They're genetically compatable, they just won't mate. These frogs have divided into races.

I have never, ever, seen that. If you have some documented instances please let me know.

	03-04-2002 20:29									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The inequality is there in the first place because of racial prejudices. Just look at some of the posters on this list. There are minority who are blatently racist, but more damaging are the greater number of people who still believe that some races are somewhat inferior.

I agree something must be done, but AA is not it. I do not see granting special previleges to a group of minorities is going to solve this problem.

What you are saying is two wrongs do make a right, which seems implausible.

	03-04-2002 20:31									#36
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Holy crap UR and I agree on something, better call the papers

	03-04-2002 21:14									#37
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People distort the legitimacy of affirmative action by calling it reverse discrimination, when it really is not reverse discrimination.

Affirmative action is about encouraging a proactive approach towards hiring more minority applicants who qualify for the positions they apply for.

	03-04-2002 21:39									#38
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The playing field is not level. It is tilted in favour of white men. To level it out, the benefits for white men go down, and the benefits for non-whites go up. You can't simply call an unlevel field level.

	04-04-2002 01:16									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun People distort the legitimacy of affirmative action by calling it reverse discrimination, when it really is not reverse discrimination. Affirmative action is about encouraging a proactive approach towards hiring more minority applicants who qualify for the positions they apply for.

So in other words give preferential treatment to blacks and other minorities at the expense of white people. Sounds a lot like discrimination to me...

Tingkai, with current anti-discrimination laws how is playing field not level?

	04-04-2002 01:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's And by hiring a less well-equipped (white) candidate merely on the grounds of race, the company are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Let them, I say.

Yes, but the truth is, the world has goten along very well with mediochre people doing their jobs. Most jobs do not require the best person for the spot, only someone to do the job. Thus, discriminationating out qualified Black people for less qualified white folks doesn't really hurt the company.

	04-04-2002 06:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I'm completely sick of the whiners complaining about AA. They basically claim they want racial equality, but when any attempt is made to create this equality, the whiners start screaming their heads off like DarkCloud. Let's face it. They don't want racial equality. They just want to keep things the same and that means a world where all the jobs go to white men. Most companies don't even really have Affirmative Action. Managers just use it as an excuse to avoid telling slackers that they didn't get the job because they're incompetent. AA has become a convenient crutch for slackers. They don't work hard and when they don't get a job, they blame it on AA.

Go fuck yourself.

	04-04-2002 06:42									#42
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But he's right.

	04-04-2002 06:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Go fuck yourself.

This is your counter-argument?

This is how you show off your intelligence??

	04-04-2002 07:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney Tingkai, with current anti-discrimination laws how is playing field not level?

Because hiring people is an extremely subjective decision so it is almost impossible to prove that racism affected a particular decision (unless the hiring manager is an idiot and voices his/her racist opinion). One person's life experience cannot be objectively measured against another person's life experience.

What we can do is look at the aggregate. If a company employs only white people (or for that matter, only black people) then we can say there is problem that needs to be corrected and the only way to correct the problem is to give preference to black (or white) candidates.

	04-04-2002 07:37									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Go fuck yourself.

So I take it you consider yourself one of those slackers and whiners.

	04-04-2002 07:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Most companies don't even really have Affirmative Action. Managers just use it as an excuse to avoid telling slackers that they didn't get the job because they're incompetent.

Given your seemingly omniscience and omnipotence, I'm curious what a manager would say to a black employee who applies for a promotion, who is this hypothetical scenario, is in fact a slacker and incompotent.

	04-04-2002 07:53									#47
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Slacking and laziness are individual traits that are not related to race or ethnicity.

Affirmative action is not intended for managers to hire slackers and lazy people.

Again, you presented another distortion on what affirmative action is.

	04-04-2002 07:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Given your seemingly omniscience and omnipotence, I'm curious what a manager would say to a black employee who applies for a promotion, who is this hypothetical scenario, is in fact a slacker and incompotent.

The smart manager deals with the problem before this happens. This means keeping a good record of the accomplishments and problems of your staff.

If the guy is a slacker then give him verbal and written warnings. If the guy is doing a good job, send off an e-mail telling him he did a good job and keep a record of that email.

This is basic stuff these days. The only way to fire someone without getting sued is to keep a record of the problems and that record can also be used for determining promotions.

Good point Mr. Fun.

Managers do not have to promote from within a company. They can always look outside if there are no suitable candidates within the company.

	04-04-2002 08:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Slacking and laziness are individual traits that are not related to race or ethnicity. Affirmative action is not intended for managers to hire slackers and lazy people. Again, you presented another distortion on what affirmative action is.

Are you refering to me, or Tingkai?

If you are refering to me you have simply dodged the question.

	04-04-2002 08:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The smart manager deals with the problem before this happens. This means keeping a good record of the accomplishments and problems of your staff. If the guy is a slacker then give him verbal and written warnings. If the guy is doing a good job, send off an e-mail telling him he did a good job and keep a record of that email. This is basic stuff these days. The only way to fire someone without getting sued is to keep a record of the problems and that record can also be used for determining promotions.

Yet, in the case of a white person, given your omniscience, managers simply tell them, "Too bad, I can't hire you because of Affirmative Action"? So, you do, in fact, support treating cases with minorities in a different fashion, yes? In other words, unequal treatment of employees based on race.

Your little theory isn't consistent.

	04-04-2002 08:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I'm completely sick of the whiners complaining about AA. They basically claim they want racial equality, but when any attempt is made to create this equality, the whiners start screaming their heads off like DarkCloud. Let's face it. They don't want racial equality. They just want to keep things the same and that means a world where all the jobs go to white men. Most companies don't even really have Affirmative Action. Managers just use it as an excuse to avoid telling slackers that they didn't get the job because they're incompetent. AA has become a convenient crutch for slackers. They don't work hard and when they don't get a job, they blame it on AA.

Oh come on.
I want the best qualified man for the job- not a quota.

Rufus-

quote: connections. AA could be thought of as compensating for that phenomena.

Compensating for one injustice in return for another is just as bad as in the first place-

quote: How else are you going to create racial equality. If you have 100 workers and none are black then the only way to reduce the inequality is to hire a black person for the next open spot. You end up discriminating against the white person, but the alternative is to leave the situation the same.

You don't need to have 'equal amounts'
Racial equality is created through schooling- not putting incompetent people in jobs where they have no business being.
Start the equality at the school level- then AA will be shown to be useless.
-
Dalgetti had a good plan.

quote: The racist hiring manager will always claim he made the hiring decision based on merit, but what is really happening is these some managers look at a black person (or whatever racial background)and think "he's not quite as good as the white guys cause black (or whatever racial background)." Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all managers are like this, but in this day and age, if a company has significant racial or gender inequality then you have to wonder about the racial attitudes of the managers.

Tingtai- I am not racist.
I hate racists... but my difference is that I hate them on both sides of te issue.

In an issue where they are of equal merit- I *may* support the "minority" receiveing the job, because I do realize taht discrimination still exists. But the problem is that AA creates anger at the minorities for "getting jobs they don't deserve" even in teh cases where they DO deserve the jobs!! And if they are no good at the jobs they get, then they are fired and that is attribuited to racism? IF AA Is taken away except for the hiring mechanism, then the fired could quite easily sue the company telling them that they had no better choice!
-
Roger, Urban Ranger

	04-04-2002 08:10									#52
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WhiteElephant, if the employee is a slacker, regardless of race, then that person needs to be reprimanded, retrained, or fired.

	04-04-2002 08:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun WhiteElephant, if the employee is a slacker, regardless of race, then that person needs to be reprimanded, retrained, or fired.

And of course you would never insuate that a white manager reprimanding a black employee for "slacking" is a racist.

	04-04-2002 08:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Racial equality is created through schooling- not putting incompetent people in jobs where they have no business being. Start the equality at the school level- then AA will be shown to be useless.

You seem to be suggesting that the only reason blacks can't get job is because they are less educated. Is this what you are saying?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud But the problem is that AA creates anger at the minorities for "getting jobs they don't deserve" even in teh cases where they DO deserve the jobs!!

So what you are saying is that white folks get angry about the hiring of someone who is not white even when that person deserves the job. So this isn't about AA. It's about the hiring of people who are not white. In other words, the anger comes from racism, not AA.

	04-04-2002 08:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants And of course you would never insuate that a white manager reprimanding a black employee for "slacking" is a racist.

Would you accept the fact that sometimes the black employee is really lazy and sometimes the manager has it out for the employee because of skin colour?

	04-04-2002 08:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants And of course you would never insuate that a white manager reprimanding a black employee for "slacking" is a racist.

If that INDIVIDUAL black person was being consistently lazy, then he would need to be treated accordingly -- the same way that a white INDIVIDUAL person would be treated for being lazy.

	04-04-2002 08:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Would you accept the fact that sometimes the black employee is really lazy and sometimes the manager has it out for the employee because of skin colour?

The real question is whether or not you would accept that sometimes the black employee is lazy and the manager doesn't have it out for the employee.

And you have to anwser how a manager is to respond to a minority employee seeking a promotion he does not deserve. In the case of a white employee you said they are simply told they can't be promoted because of affirmative action. What's the other side of the story?

quote: So what you are saying is that white folks get angry about the hiring of someone who is not white even when that person deserves the job. So this isn't about AA. It's about the hiring of people who are not white. In other words, the anger comes from racism, not AA.

Given that it's a law based on race discrimination I would think it gives the racists "fuel for the fire", no? Because of this law no one can never know for sure why a minority was hired and therefore gives racists an excuse, no?

	04-04-2002 09:16									#58
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants The real question is whether or not you would accept that sometimes the black employee is lazy and the manager doesn't have it out for the employee. And you have to anwser how a manager is to respond to a minority employee seeking a promotion he does not deserve. In the case of a white employee you said they are simply told they can't be promoted because of affirmative action. What's the other side of the story? Given that it's a law based on race discrimination I would think it gives the racists "fuel for the fire", no? Because of this law no one can never know for sure why a minority was hired and therefore gives racists an excuse, no?

Oh course there are lazy and incompetent black people, just as there are lazy and incompetent [insert any race, nationality, creed here] people.

There may not be an easy excuses for minorities. That doesn't change the fact that AA is often an easy excuse for managers dealing with white men.

AA is just an excuse to hate and if the racist don't have this excuse, they'll find another. So there is no point in cancelling AA just because racists use it as an excuse.

If you don't have an official AA program then the racists will still say the minority person [for lack of a better description] got the job because of their colour or gender. Racists simply don't want to admit that the minority person got the job because of their ability.

And it is not just racists. It's far easier to use an excuse [I didn't get the job because: the manager is racist/the guy who got it sucked up to the boss/the manager is an idiot/and so on] rather than to tell yourself "I didn't deserve this promotion, I need to work harder."

	08-04-2002 03:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You seem to be suggesting that the only reason blacks can't get job is because they are less educated. Is this what you are saying?

No, I am saying that AA allows lesser educated people to get jobs... and the reason it was created in the first place was to help black people, that is why they were being used as an example, because they weren't as well educated as whites.

quote: So what you are saying is that white folks get angry about the hiring of someone who is not white even when that person deserves the job. So this isn't about AA. It's about the hiring of people who are not white. In other words, the anger comes from racism, not AA.

No. Anger comes from AA which IS racist and leads to racism on both sides.

	08-04-2002 05:36									#60
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I do not see any legitimate argument against affirmative action that uses the term reverse discrimination.

Many sociologists see reverse discrimination as an oxymoron, that has no basis in argumentation.