06-04-2002 00:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Sava America imports 52 percent of its oil... 42 percent from the Middle East. I think a 42 percent cut in oil would cause problems.

Incorrect.

quote: Second, you know two things about Reagan's effect on American economics, jack and ****, and jack left town.

Incorrect.

quote: Reagan busted unions which preserve workers rights and fair wages. Sure he created more jobs, but he did away with higher paying jobs and created more lower paying jobs.

Incorrect. He created 14 million stable, and high paying jobs. Evidence will be found at the end of this post by the trustful CATO institute.

quote: Stupid judgements? I am minoring in political science and economics at DePaul University in Illinois. I just finished a 20 page dissertation on the US Economy from 1975-2000. You look like you are about 16 or 17 years old. I doubt you know anything except from what you see on TV.

I have gotten a 5 on an AP Economics Mock Exam. And am going to 5 5 Page Essays in Economics. IN HIGH SCHOOL! And based on my ****ing age I cannot make judgements on my own.

quote: My suggestion... get and education, then flame people on online message boards AFTER you know what it is you are talking about.

You know **** about what you are talking about. I trust the CATO institute over some smart ass liberal.

quote: Alzheimers in the 90's? Apparantly you never saw any of Reagan's TV addresses to the nation. Half the time he couldn't remember to read the cue cards and he trailed off on some scewed tangent topic. The guy was an invalid. He was a puppet for the Republican party so they could exert their "rich get richer" agenda.

http://www.c-span.org/transition2001/archival.asp

You just piss me off. I watched his inaugural address sixty times. He has nothing impaired.

And you are a puppet for the democratic party, to make everybody in this country lose their income.

Evidence provided at the end of the post by the respectful CATO institute.

quote: Between 1981 and 1989, the annual cost of living in the US went from about $26,000 to $35,000, while the average mean income decreased from $32,000 to $30,000. Reagan helped the top 1% of the population get richer. BECAUSE THAT'S WHO REPUBLICANS REPRESENT!

WRONG AGAIN!



So where exactly did you pull your stats out of? Your ass?



http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-261.html (source)

quote: The gains in incomes of all income groups is all the more impressive when we examine data on income mobility. Tens of millions of Americans moved up the income scale in the 1980s--an economic fact that is obscured when only the static income quintile data from the start of the decade to the end are examined. Figure 12 shows that 86 percent of households that were in the poorest income quintile in 1980 had moved up the economic ladder to a higher income quintile by 1990. Incredibly, a poor household in 1980 was more likely to have moved all the way up to the richest income quintile by 1990 (15 percent) than to still be in the poorest quintile (14 percent).

Learn up, before saying something idiotic.

	06-04-2002 00:13									#62
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This post is directed to Eli.

Chill man-Our prez is on your side.
Politics forced him into this speach (which was very good IMO-and of course he didnt write it but he gave the outline to a speachwriter and then he proofread it-THEN he gave it )

In all it was a pro Isreal speech with most of the onus of the current situation being placed on the PA and in particular Arafat.

To be fair if the Israeli gov. had told us to leave Afg. after a week we would have said ***K OFF too.

I too am very frustrated with the double standard Bush seems to be embracing.
A TERRORIST IS A TERRORIST IS A TERRORIST.

Oh and BTW -yes Israel did offer unconditional support for us following 9\11 and I for one apreciated it .
Furthermore we should have accepted it and dumped all these Arab "allies" who will someday be our enemies anyway.
Think about it --A joint US- Israeli operation.We could clean up the Middle East once and for all.

	06-04-2002 00:14									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It doesn't matter what Israel thinks... when the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, and supplier of 90% of the Israeli Military weaponry wants Israel to leave, IT WILL LEAVE. There is no talk about it.

Bullshit - Bush doesn't have the balls to go into a full on confrontation with Sharon, because of the simple fact that US strategic interests are served by having Israel in the mideast as a US ally. Bush wants to give himself some semblence of maneuvering room in the arab world by not overtly supporting every move the Israelis make, but a dead terrorist is a dead terrorist.

quote: Fine, you can ignore the US and then this time become part of Syria and Egypt.

you are so when you get There is no way in hell that any combination of arab armies would overrun Israel - the question, as always, is how much would the arabs lose, how fast?

The most that the arabs could do, if they didn't value their existence, would be to escalate to WMD's, and then the **** would really hit the fan - rhetoric aside, no arab leader, even Saddam Hussein, is that nuts.

quote: You better respect the US damn it, because if it weren't for them, you wouldn't of won any of those wars.

bullshit. The only thing which limited the extent of Israeli victory was time and logistics. In 48 more hours, if that, Arik Sharon would have been driving through downtown Cairo, and the Egyptians knew it.

And Israel knows better than to listen to the hand-wringers - every Arab-Israeli war, when the UN has called for cease-fires, it has only been after the arabs ****ed up and the Israelis went over to the offensive.

Bush will "speak out", to try to maintain a sliver of credibility with moslem "ally" governments whose cooperation we want. That's about as far as it will go.

	06-04-2002 00:21									#64
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Siro, get on ICQ.

Edit : Oops, it's MtG. The avatar confused me.

Last edited by Eli on 06-04-2002 at 00:31

	06-04-2002 00:32									#65
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Bullshit - Bush doesn't have the balls to go into a full on confrontation with Sharon, because of the simple fact that US strategic interests are served by having Israel in the mideast as a US ally. Bush wants to give himself some semblence of maneuvering room in the arab world by not overtly supporting every move the Israelis make, but a dead terrorist is a dead terrorist.

Well then they will do it unlaterially without the support Europe. Sharon can kiss whatever little support he had from Europe goodby. I am sick and ****ing tired of Arafat, and Sharon because they are idiots who cannot live together. It is pathetic! Even in Argentina, there are thousands of jews who live right next to arabs.

quote: you are so when you get

I am always cute, and even moreso when I get frustrated.

quote: There is no way in hell that any combination of arab armies would overrun Israel - the question, as always, is how much would the arabs lose, how fast?

I was disputing that?

quote: The most that the arabs could do, if they didn't value their existence, would be to escalate to WMD's, and then the **** would really hit the fan - rhetoric aside, no arab leader, even Saddam Hussein, is that nuts.

I dunno, Saddam Hussein is out of his mind. He is paying suicide bombers $25k to blow the hell out of civilians. That is what I can't stand.

I am not taking any ****ing sides in this dispute, because I dislike both sides and why they are doing what they are doing.

quote: bullshit. The only thing which limited the extent of Israeli victory was time and logistics. In 48 more hours, if that, Arik Sharon would have been driving through downtown Cairo, and the Egyptians knew it.

AND I WAS DISPUTING THAT? NO I WAS NOT DAMN IT!

quote: And Israel knows better than to listen to the hand-wringers - every Arab-Israeli war, when the UN has called for cease-fires, it has only been after the arabs ****ed up and the Israelis went over to the offensive.

The UN royally ****ed up in 1947.

quote: Bush will "speak out", to try to maintain a sliver of credibility with moslem "ally" governments whose cooperation we want. That's about as far as it will go.

And Bush needs the support of these governments, and the Israelis pissing them off will not accomplish anything.

This is like 1982 repeating itself. A big disaster after Begin refused to pull out of Lebanon.

	06-04-2002 00:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Siro, get on ICQ. Edit : Oops, it's MtG. The avatar confused me.

Yeah - I asked Siro to send me some avatar files.

	06-04-2002 00:45									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Gian, I bet we could pull off for another week. I bet IDF is being told to speed up... perhaps we'll need more troops Anyway, we're tired of listening to other people's whims. It's not americans or turks or egyptians being blown up.

I am terribly angry about the homicide bombings against Israel, but I must remind you - it IS also Americans being blown up. 3000 on 9/11. And we are still worried about a follow-up, which could come any day. I know this wont satisfy, since you are dealing with death every day, and huge in numbers for a small country. But you must realize that American foreign policy is now also a matter of life or death, and Americans approach it with that seriousness. This is both good for you and not good, when our interests differ. The american administration will pursue American interests, as your govt will pursue Israeli interests.

And btw, i presume the IDF was smart enough going in, to have plans for different lengths of allotted time, and sequenced actions accordingly. Note that Gaza was left for last - most (all?) recent homicide bombings have come from the west bank, and it is the west bank where the oppurtunity to run from city to city is greatest, requiring a longer operation than past israeli raids. I think Gaza was left for last with just this in mind.

LOTM

	06-04-2002 00:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Well then they will do it unlaterially without the support Europe. Sharon can kiss whatever little support he had from Europe goodby. I am sick and ****ing tired of Arafat, and Sharon because they are idiots who cannot live together. It is pathetic!

Gian, arafat has been failing to keep his commitments since Oslo. The israeli PM's in that time have been Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu, Barak and Sharon. 5 different Israeli PM's, all of whom are considered "unjust oppressors" by the Israel haters here. The personality of Sharon really doesnt make much difference right now. As long as the homicide bombers are killing Israelis every day, it wont matter who the PM in Israel is.

LOTM

	06-04-2002 00:52									#69
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Gian, arafat has been failing to keep his commitments since Oslo. The israeli PM's in that time have been Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu, Barak and Sharon. 5 different Israeli PM's, all of whom are considered "unjust oppressors" by the Israel haters here. The personality of Sharon really doesnt make much difference right now. As long as the homicide bombers are killing Israelis every day, it wont matter who the PM in Israel is. LOTM

My sig says I am neutral. So again I am not taking sides. I am criticising both Palestinian Leader Yassir Arafat and Israel evenly. I don't care about Sharon. This situation just has to be resolved peacefully because there is no way either side could win. The only way this would work is if Israel would kill every last Palestinian, and that won't happen.

	06-04-2002 00:58									#70
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America imports 10, yes 10 percent of it's oil from the Middle east.

52% comes from gold ol' Texas Tea and Alaskan Gold. 10% Mexico. 10% Venezuela. 10% Nigeria. and 8% "Other".

Back on track here.


It saddens me that of all the Muslim countries in the world, the only two who had the balls to come out and call the Palestinian suicide bombers terrorists were Bosnia, and surprisingly Malaysia. Not even Albania could do us the honor of calling it what it is...terrorism.


I'm glad to see that Bush's speach yesterday boiled down to "Hey you two! I don't care who started it, knock that shcit off!"

Which is, after all, true.

Knock it off!

In other news, Powell won't be visiting Israel until the end of next week. Seems to me Bush is giving Sharon a week to screw around in the West Bank and (hopefully) nab as many thugs as possible.

	06-04-2002 00:59									#71
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Gaza was left to the end because :
The Israeli takeover of the Pal cities start with Israeli Sayarot entering them, clearing the way for the tanks and APCs and then the Golani and Nahal infantry enter for a house to house searching. After the main job is done, they send in the reservniks to hold the city and continue with the less complicated house to house searches.
That's why we've been entering the cities one after another. We need the Sayarot and the young infantry combatants.

Gaza will be much more dangerous, bloody and complicated than every West Bank city. It's the root of the Palestinian terrorism. This is the place where you have the Hamas leaders and engineers, the Kassam 2 manufacturies etc. And since the refugee camps in Gaza can be a potential death trap because of their huge population density we keep the possible complication to the end, so that the soldiers are more trained and to prevent an early ending of the operation due to some bloody scenario a-la Invei Zaam.

	06-04-2002 01:04									#72
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Fortunately our protests have been heard and the US is going to tell its doggie to pull the beasts out.

Palestine saved, once more.

	06-04-2002 01:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Fortunately our protests have been heard and the US is going to tell its doggie to pull the beasts out. Palestine saved, once more.

Smug, self-congratulatory and utterly delusional. Palestine saved, huh? Since your criticism is so powerful, why don't you also demand that the Palestinian terror groups stop killing innocent civilians? That, in fact, would probably do more to save Palestine. Frankly, without suicide bombing, a helluva lot more Americans would be sympathetic to the Palestinians. Their reliance on such tactics have alienated some of the people who could help them most.

-Arrian

	06-04-2002 01:13									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Since your criticism is so powerful, why don't you also demand that the Palestinian terror groups stop killing innocent civilians?

Jews are evil and must be destroyed. [/paiktis22]

	06-04-2002 01:13									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Since your criticism is so powerful, why don't you also demand that the Palestinian terror groups stop killing innocent civilians?

Won't happen untill Palestine is free, a state with full rights.
So live with it.
As long as this does not happen US and Israel will suffer.

Reality.

	06-04-2002 01:14									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Jews are evil and must be destroyed. [/paiktis22]

Blacks are inferior [/Dinodoc]

	06-04-2002 01:16									#77
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Blacks are inferior [/Dinodoc]

Mine was both witty and closer to the truth about your apparent feelings on the matter.

	06-04-2002 01:17									#78
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Just C-H-I-L-L [/Ming]

	06-04-2002 01:18									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Mine was both witty and closer to the truth about your apparent feelings on the matter.

Yours was a troll, mine has historical basis.

	06-04-2002 01:27									#80
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Won't happen untill Palestine is free, a state with full rights. So live with it. As long as this does not happen US and Israel will suffer. Reality.

I agree that there should be such a Palestinian State. What I fail to understand, however, are those people who are so pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli that they are fine with the suicide bombing. Both sides need to stop beating on each other in order to make peace - anyone can see that. I was making more of a practical comment than a moral one. U.S. public opinion, which is probably more powerful than you think, is mostly pro-Israel and will remain so largely because of the bombings. From a practical standpoint, if the Palestinian goal is to have a state of their own, suicide bombing only hurts them.

I really would like to see stable & secure Israel and Palestine side-by-side. I don't think either side's policies will help achieve that goal. This is why I liked Dubya's speech - because he criticized both sides.

Incidentally, I would add one more thing to your prior post:

"As long as this does not happen US, Israel and the Palestinians will suffer. Reality"

-Arrian

	06-04-2002 01:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I agree that there should be such a Palestinian State.

Good.

quote: What I fail to understand, however, are those people who are so pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli that they are fine with the suicide bombing.

Noone condones suiocide bombings.

quote: Both sides need to stop beating on each other in order to make peace - anyone can see that.

Again, agreed.

quote: I was making more of a practical comment than a moral one.

Me too.

quote: U.S. public opinion, which is probably more powerful than you think, is mostly pro-Israel and will remain so largely because of the bombings.

US public opinion is manipulated according to what US interests are. And they are pro-Israeli. So you don't get any of the Palestinian suffering on your TVs.

quote: From a practical standpoint, if the Palestinian goal is to have a state of their own, suicide bombing only hurts them.

See above.

quote: I really would like to see stable & secure Israel and Palestine side-by-side. I don't think either side's policies will help achieve that goal.

Agreed.

quote: This is why I liked Dubya's speech - because he criticized both sides.

I and many others hated it. It keeps "equal distances" from both parties. That means that since Israel is far more powerful, he is pro-Israeli and allows the murders to continue.
But he did feel the pressure, hence his speech. So it's a step in the right direction. Although their are no illusions about US foreign policy.
Withou the US Israel could not murder.

quote: Incidentally, I would add one more thing to your prior post: "As long as this does not happen US, Israel and the Palestinians will suffer. Reality" -Arrian

And Europe through some restriction of Civil Liberties. (Osama)

	06-04-2002 01:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Noone condones suiocide bombings.

Not true. I can name one person on this very board that cheers them on.

Europe does as well because they fail to demand any accountability from either Arafat or the PA for stopping the suicide attacks on civilians.

	06-04-2002 01:38									#83
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quote: if the Palestinian goal is to have a state of their own, suicide bombing onlY hurts them.

Sadly, that's not the goal of suicide bombers. Those elements want the wholesale destruction of Israel

	06-04-2002 01:53									#84
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Paiktis22,

Noone condones the suicide bombings? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Maybe not you, but many of those who are critical of Israel when it comes to the use of force are either supportive of, or silent about the suicide bombings. It seems to me that if you think Israel's occupation is wrong, then you must also feel that the Palestinian's use of violence against civilians is wrong. But not all Pal apologists do. That's all I was saying.

Second, I'm fully aware that our media is biased. Which is why I get my news online, from a variety of sources. HOWEVER, I believe that the primary reason that those who wish to only present one side of the issue are so successful is the use of suicide bombing. Those attacks remove all credibility from the Palestinian cause. Sorry, but I cannot and will not respect people who believe that strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a restaurant full of people is an acceptable form of resistance! And believe me, most of my countrymen agree. Remove that from the equation, however, and I would probably be pro-Palestinian, instead of equally disgusted with both sides.

The really unfortunately thing is that the extremists are running the show on both sides. Those who actually may want peace have no voice now, or are being converted to more extreme points of view by the daily slaughter.

-Arrian

	06-04-2002 01:58									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Paiktis22, Noone condones the suicide bombings? I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Maybe not you, but many of those who are critical of Israel when it comes to the use of force are either supportive of, or silent about the suicide bombings. It seems to me that if you think Israel's occupation is wrong, then you must also feel that the Palestinian's use of violence against civilians is wrong. But not all Pal apologists do. That's all I was saying.

Suicide bombings are wrong. How can one say they are not?

quote: Second, I'm fully aware that our media is biased. Which is why I get my news online, from a variety of sources. HOWEVER, I believe that the primary reason that those who wish to only present one side of the issue are so successful is the use of suicide bombing. Those attacks remove all credibility from the Palestinian cause. Sorry, but I cannot and will not respect people who believe that strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a restaurant full of people is an acceptable form of resistance! And believe me, most of my countrymen agree. Remove that from the equation, however, and I would probably be pro-Palestinian, instead of equally disgusted with both sides.

Israel's tanks buldozers and settlers killing and driving people from their homes fuels suicide bombers.
A free Palestinian state respected by Israel will limit these bombings to very few extremists which will be promptly be taken care of by the whole International Community without exceptions and without divisions.

	06-04-2002 02:16									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo My sig says I am neutral. So again I am not taking sides. I am criticising both Palestinian Leader Yassir Arafat and Israel evenly. I don't care about Sharon. This situation just has to be resolved peacefully because there is no way either side could win. The only way this would work is if Israel would kill every last Palestinian, and that won't happen.

I agree that a peaceful settlement is necessary. I just believe that to understand the obstacles to a settlement it is important not to personalize it too much. This is even true wrt Arafat, though he has been the Pal leader for a long time. It is even more true wrt to Israel.


LOTM

	06-04-2002 02:18									#87
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P22,

Yes, and suicide bombings fuel the IDF incursions. That's like the chicken and the egg, and just as pointless! This thing has gone on for so long that each side will switch into full attack mode at the slightest provocation. That's what makes it so damn easy for the extremists to prevent peace.

So, let's move into the realm of fiction for a moment. I ask you this: from a practical standpoint, exactly what would you have the world leadership do? By that I mean the US, EU, and/or the UN. Would you send in international peacekeepers? What if the suicide attacks continued while the two sides were attempting to negotiate? Would the UN go after them, or would they be ignored? How exactly would you handle that issue? Or would there be no negotiations - would you enforce an outside solution on both sides?

-Arrian

	06-04-2002 02:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Fortunately our protests have been heard and the US is going to tell its doggie to pull the beasts out. Palestine saved, once more.

Paiktis may be correct, but not quite in the way he means it. The US is now going to give Arafat one last chance to live up to his commitments and end terror. After Bush's speech, he CANNOT let Arafat off the hook again. IF (very big if) Arafat and the Palestinian people see reason, then Palestine WILL be saved, thanks to George W Bush. If not, not.


LOTM

	06-04-2002 02:29									#89
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 A free Palestinian state respected by Israel will limit these bombings to very few extremists which will be promptly be taken care of by the whole International Community without exceptions and without divisions.

Really? You can guarantee this??? with your life and the lives of your children???? Because thats what you're asking of Israel.

How will they take care of it? With an international force that will go into palestinian cities, and hunt for terrorists? and will stay there, even when palestinian civilians die in collateral damage? and when "international troopers" die? They will not turn tail and run, like they did in Srebinica? they will not make further excuses, since a case can and will be made that even an israel behind 1967 lines is still racist and oppresive to Palestinians? They will not look the other way, like they did in Rwanda? They will not wait for the Americans to push them into it, and then complain about american imperialism, like they did in Kosovo?
I am not saying you are entirely wrong, i think the general direction you are pointing - israeli peace with free palestine, backed up by international support for Israel is the right direction. But you must be aware that even as it goes in that direction, Israel must take into account both that the number who keep commiting terrorist acts against Israel in that situation is likely to be large, and international support is likely to be ineffective, and so they must be very careful the free palestine has borders and other safeguards that enable Israel to defend itself, if necessary.


LOTM

	06-04-2002 02:35									#90
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Suicide bombings are wrong. How can one say they are not?

Heres how "acts of resistance against illegal occupation cannot be condemned, and are not terrorism" This kind of statement has been widely applied to the homicide bombers. Iraq has recently upped its reward to families that homicide bombers leave behind, The govt of Iraq not only condones, but encourages homicide bombers. Large numbers of palestinians treat the homicide bombers as heros, and put pressure on young men to join them. Iran ships Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al aqsa brigades organize and equip homicide bombers. Arafat provides funds to al aqsa brigades to buy explosives for homicide bombers.

All these not only condone, but encourage, equip and organize homicide bombings.


LOTM