09-04-2002 10:39									#31
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Not killing enough evil capitalist pig-dogs

	09-04-2002 12:25									#32
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I'd vote for everything except the Red Terror (that was not caused by communism nor is that kind of thing unique to communism), however if it came down to it, I think I'd pick the Cultural Revolution. AFAIK China is still suffering from that insanity.

quote: The Red Terror was nothing compared to the White Terror.

If you're talking about the first purges in Bolshevik Russia, the reason they succeeded was because they were much nastier than what the Whites were doing. If you're talking about what happened in Bavaria, I know very little about that.

quote: I'm gonna have to go with the Ukrainian Genocide, though it wasn't specifically targetted at Ukrainians, and it wasn't a genocide. Still, it was the first deliberate mass murder carried out in our movement's name, and the biggest stain we have.

I would definitely call it genocide. It was deliberately induced starvation directed aganst the inhabitants of the Ukraine for wanting independance.

quote: The Great Leap Forward was not a crime, but a well-intended disaster.

I propose that we edit all history books dealing with this catastrophe, renaming it the 'Great Leap Backwards'.

	09-04-2002 14:38									#33
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Ukranian genocide?
WTF???
What the .... are you talking about? Were did you took those myth?
Can anyone enlight me about this "genocide"?
I know nothing about such events. I know about great hunger, I know about Stalin's "collectivization", but Ukranian genocide?
Very interesting version of events.

	09-04-2002 15:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Communism was worse than Fascism.

Um...really? Hadn't noticed...
Communism's not the greatest ideology in the world, but Fascism is thousands of times worse...

	09-04-2002 17:47									#35
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quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic Um...really? Hadn't noticed... Communism's not the greatest ideology in the world, but Fascism is thousands of times worse...

Just compare the death counts. In WWII alone, Stalin killed abuot 2x more people than Hitler.

Also, compare the standard of living. If you were a non-Jewish German living in Nazi Germany, life was very good. If you were a Russian in the Soviet Union, life was very bad.

That's why Communism is worse than Fascism.

	09-04-2002 17:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If you were a non-Jewish German living in Nazi Germany, life was very good.

If you were a Jewish German living in Nazi Germany, life was short.

	09-04-2002 17:51									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ming If you were a Jewish German living in Nazi Germany, life was short.

True, but the difference is, everyone's life was short in Communism. At least with the Fascists, some people had a good life.

	09-04-2002 18:39									#38
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Let me give you a more complete list of those who lived a shorter life in Nazi Germany:

1) Jews
2) mentally disabled
3) physically disabled
4) Gyspsies
5) anti-Nazi political activists
6) homosexuals

	09-04-2002 18:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Let me give you a more complete list of those who lived a shorter life in Nazi Germany: 1) Jews 2) mentally disabled 3) physically disabled 4) Gyspsies 5) anti-Nazi political activists 6) homosexuals

Don't forget my Serbian brothers in that list.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Nazis. They killed half my family on my mother's side of the family. My grandmother watched two of her brother's get bayonnetted, and my grandfather was 1 of 6 survivors of a 500 person massacre. The only way he survived was he fell under dead bodies as they were lined up and shot.

I'm just saying that Fascism was better than Communism. Unfortunately, that's like saying getting hit by a car and dying is better than getting burned alive.

	09-04-2002 20:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ukranian genocide? WTF??? What the .... are you talking about? Were did you took those myth?

Oh, come on! Even you can not be this dense. Even the Apolyton arch-commie knew what I was refering to.

FYI: The name refers to the artificial famine in the Ukraine in 1932-33 that had been instigated by Josepf Stalin & Lazar Kaganovich. The goal of this action was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer and force them into collectivization. Apparently the fact that it cost cost the lives of 7 to 10 million people was incidental to them.

	09-04-2002 20:37									#41
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As a member (hopefully) of ACP, I state;
haven't heard of any!

	09-04-2002 20:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson haven't heard of any!

Heard of any what?

I would have thought that you, being Polish and all, would have something to say about the suppression of Solidarity.

	09-04-2002 20:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Just compare the death counts. In WWII alone, Stalin killed abuot 2x more people than Hitler.

Your grasp of statistics is lacking.

Stalin had far more control over a far larger number of people over a much longer time than Hitler ever did. Stalin may have killed more people, but Hitler was a far more "efficient" killer.

I don't think communism was any better than fascism, but your argument was a strawman.

	09-04-2002 20:49									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ukranian genocide? WTF??? What the .... are you talking about? Were did you took those myth? Can anyone enlight me about this "genocide"? I know nothing about such events. I know about great hunger, I know about Stalin's "collectivization", but Ukranian genocide? Very interesting version of events.

I find this unsurprising.

-Arrian

	09-04-2002 20:50									#45
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Guy, why do you insist on quoting Sava? Some of us have him on our ignore lists.

	09-04-2002 20:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Guy, why do you insist on quoting Sava? Some of us have him on our ignore lists.

Doh! My most sincere apologies, my "conservative" friend.

	09-04-2002 21:04									#47
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The good thing on such threads is, you could post post nearly the same stuff in all of them, you only need to replace the keywords...

	09-04-2002 22:45									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava True, but the difference is, everyone's life was short in Communism.

Actually, in communist Cuba healthcare has been vastly improved. Gone is the Batista "Universal Healthcare for the Top 1%". Cuba has made a progressive commitment to an improved standard of living not only in Cuba, but throughout the developing world. Havana has spent billions on improving rural infastructure: water supply, electricity, sanitation, education and healthcare. Cuba has trained tens of thousands of doctors and is genorous enough to share them with the rest of the world. Contrary to the Batista government that spent all its money making Havana an attractive and fun place for elite Cubans and foreigners, the Castro government has spent its money improving the lives of the people in rural areas, away from the spotlight - where it counts.

	09-04-2002 22:52									#49
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... and a lot of it is propaganda .

While I don't doubt Cuba has done good things, it isn't the 1st world healthcare paradise that people explain it to be. People that go to Cuba really don't leave it thinking it is anything but a developing nation.

Read PJ O'Rourke's "Eat the Rich" chapter on Cuba for more insight.

	09-04-2002 23:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc A little something for your friendly neighborhood Apolyton Evil, Capitalist Conservative Party.

wrong on all accounts. as usual.

	10-04-2002 01:55									#51
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I'm not so sure that Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Stalin killed somewhere in the 10-20 million range. Hitler killed six million Jews, and anothe for million gypsies, Russians, and other "undesirables" in the camps. But he also killed millions of civillians throughout Europe either as "examples" or just for the heck of it. IIRC, something like 25% of the population of Greece was killed in the war; Serbs, Poles, Ukrainians and others suffered as well. Certainly Stalin didn't kill twice as many.

	10-04-2002 04:59									#52
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And, let's not forget the war deaths. 50 million people died as a result of that war, and that's just Europe. If we include the death camps and the USSR war deaths alone, we have between 30 and 40 million dead.

The absolutely most exagerated numbers of Stalin's victims is put at 30 million. Add in 27 million war dead, and the USSR simply could not have continued to exist. A full 1/3rd of it's population would have been destroyed.

The only reputable study has put Stalin's victims at between 800,000 and 900,000, not including the collectivisation famine victims. It is still a crime of monstrous proportions, but it is not on the level of fascism.

	10-04-2002 06:04									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And, let's not forget the war deaths. 50 million people died as a result of that war, and that's just Europe. If we include the death camps and the USSR war deaths alone, we have between 30 and 40 million dead.

If we added war deathes though, we'd have to add the victims of the Winter War with Finland to Stalin's total.

quote: The absolutely most exagerated numbers of Stalin's victims is put at 30 million. Add in 27 million war dead, and the USSR simply could not have continued to exist.

Other countries also lost large fractions of their populations yet continued to exist. Poland, for example, lost about 20% of its population, and several Balkan countries did as well, IIRC.

quote: A full 1/3rd of it's population would have been destroyed.

So you think that the population of the USSR during the 1930s was 180 million? I'm not saying it's wrong, but I thought it was higher than that.

quote: The only reputable study has put Stalin's victims at between 800,000 and 900,000, not including the collectivisation famine victims. It is still a crime of monstrous proportions, but it is not on the level of fascism.

If by reputable we mean marxist.

	10-04-2002 06:09									#54
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I mean the only one that went and looked at the records. The NKVD did keep track of the people it was killing.

	10-04-2002 06:25									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I mean the only one that went and looked at the records. The NKVD did keep track of the people it was killing.

I admit that I haven't done enough reading to argue this further intelligently, except to say that generally accepted historical opinion places the total number of Stalin's victims much higher. Could we discuss some of the other points I made there?

	10-04-2002 06:52									#56
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quote: he only reputable study has put Stalin's victims at between 800,000 and 900,000, not including the collectivisation famine victims. It is still a crime of monstrous proportions, but it is not on the level of fascism.

Acording to the most recent source I've looked at (Modern European History: 1890-1990), in 1937-38 they were shooting 1000 people a day in Moscow alone. It goes on to say that up to 12 million people may have been shot or died in the labour camps. Collectivisation-induced famine killed another ten million, meaning tat between your figures and mine, the death toll would be anywhere between 11 million and 22 million.

	10-04-2002 10:11									#57
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It's a tough choice, but I'm going with Great Leap Forward for the sheer numbers of deaths. It's now thought perhaps 30 million died needlessly during this, the worst famine in the world's history. The obscenity of millions dropping dead of starvation while grain bins were full has to be among the greatest crimes in the history of man.

The Cultural Revolution was far more damaging in terms of loss of property and irreplacable cultural treasures, but at least not as many people died.

	10-04-2002 14:22									#58
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To all pro-nazi bastards,
Everyone who think that nazism is better then Stalinism is an idiot, everyone who think that nazism is better then communism is ten times more stuipid idiot.

You are still unable to understand the difference between Nazism and Stalinsm. Both of those regimes were evil, BUT for Stalin mass murders of people was a TOOL, a tool for spreading (not unhuman by it's nature) communist ideology, a tool for staying in power. For Hitler mass murders of people was a GOAL. The goal of his ideology- nazism.

	10-04-2002 14:30									#59
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haven't heard of any communism's crimes that is.
All that was done wrong is a fault of those that lost communism's principles of they eyes.

	10-04-2002 14:54									#60
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To all pro-nazi bastards (part 2),
Your ati-communism hate makes you a blind idiots. In your hate, you deny any logical thinking and ready to say that the most terrible and unhuman ideologies like Nazism were better then communism, only because you hate communism so much.
Yes, I'm agreed with Heresson there was no communism's crimes at all, because all so-called communist's governments betrayed the principles of communistic ideology and turned to tyrany. But even those tyranies like Stalinism were much more 'human' then Nazism. You deny it because you hate communism.
Who do you think you are? Are you much more wise then Churchill or Roosvelt? Were is your logic? Or may be you think that leaders of your countries were an idiots who made a wrong choise. If Stalinism were worse then Nazism then why your countries allied with communist in war against nazism?

May be because Nazism was much more terrible and unhuman ideology or may be you think your countries made a wrong choise?


P.S. Damn, I'm sound like a commi.