15-03-2001 14:42									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cyclotron 7, I introduced the relation between kind of unit (hence, tech level) and people needed to arms it.
As Nadexander posted:

quote: For example a unit of rifleman will take big chunks out of the population but equiping a unit of artillery or stealth bombers is usually a matter of resources and not of man-power.

And, with some game limit to reality, I suggested to model it with any Advanced Soldier Specialist able to support more units (e.g. three instead of two) than early Soldier Specialist. We already have advanced specialist in SMAC, that are introduced by tech advance, so I follow the Firaxis concept here.

Urban, for sake of simplicity I counted that people under armies subtract to the town all their production as workers (usually shield, coin and food). So I accepted that as good enough to model unit food needs, too.

Don't forget early armies used to bring food from hunting and pillaging enemy small villages.

Ok, now that I have answered some questions, I want to summarize this thread a bit.
It's obvius we have at least a radical model (national level support) and a minor enhancement one (soldier specialist).

Both have pro & cons but, more relevant for me, as far as I understand we agree that:

1) military units MUST be built using some city population. A destroyed unit is a population loss. During peace time is inefficient to keep up a large army force idle (disbanding some units become a more valid option).

2) people under Army Service reduced shield production, trade and food (they cost resources)

Now Firaxis can implement any valid model (city based support or civ based support) until it satisfy the two point mentioned above.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	15-03-2001 19:19									#32
	Tired of ads?

Just to muddy the waters a little. I like the idea of using a specialist and/or recruitment screen. I think it can model the natural economic choice of Guns vs Bread.

But there is one thing I would like to see if this is the case.

Once the unit is produced, you get a specilist and a 'dividable military unit'. The whole unit being the Brigrad.

Say I produce 1 unit phalanx with 1-2-1, I would be able to divide them to two units phalanx with .5-1-1. Or even do the reverse of combining them.

There is one other thing I woould like to see is the ability to name the unit or army.

Since the One citizen represents (I think) 10000 population. then the 1:1 citizin rule would not equate.

	19-03-2001 14:37									#34
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Excerpt from the List, Economics and Trade section

17.3) Social Engineering and unit support (modified from the SMAC SE system). Instead of taking up physically modeled resources, units take up productivity represented by workers converted to Specialists supporting military units. Non-military units should require economic support only or minimal Specialist support.

17.3.1) The new class(es) of Specialist represents the troops themselves as a fraction of population, plus the military personnel devoted to supply and support, plus civilian productivity diverted to supply and support. Support must be supplied by Specialist(s) in the home city.

17.3.1.1) The Soldier Specialist incurs a penalty of -2 Economy -1 Labs +1 Psych in the city. Obsolete with industrialization.

17.3.1.2) The Quartermaster Specialist becomes available with industrialization and incurs a penalty of -1 Economy and a +2 Psych bonus.

17.3.1.3) The Engineer Specialist (available with Fusion) includes a limited strength support function. The Engineer Specialist provides one support point at some SE Support levels.

17.3.2) Military units require Specialist support points based on chassis type, technology level, and a fraction of the unit's construction cost. (A fractional or x10 accounting system is preferred.) Nonmilitary units, if requiring Specialist support points at all, would be based on chassis type and technology level. Basic infantry units should require around 1 point, basic vehicle units 1˝ – 2 points, and aircraft 2 – 3 points.

17.3.2.1) Higher power plant technology level should diminish support requirements.

17.3.2.2) Higher weapons technology level should increase support requirements.

17.3.2.3) Special Abilities directly related to weapons or training should increase support requirements. This would apply to non-combat units if non-combat units are permitted AAA, Comm Jammer, Cloaking etc.

17.3.2.4) "Clean Reactor" does not effect support cost derived from weapons or §17.3.2.3 above.

17.3.3) Social Engineering Support Level affects "free" support points from bases and support points provided by Specialists.

17.3.3.1) SE Support Level Effects Table

SE Support    Specialist Support     Free Support
  Level            Points Provided        Points/Base        Other Effects
  –4                        2                     
   None             •Engineer does not provide sup
port
                                                  
                         •No free minerals for new
 base
                                                  
                         •Soldier/Qtrmaster incurs add'l -1 Economy
  –3                        2                     
   None             •Engineer does not provide sup
port
                                                  
                         •No free minerals for new
 base
  –2                        2                     
     1                •Engineer does not provide s
upport
                                                  
                         •No free minerals for new
 base
  –1                        2                     
     1                •Engineer provides 1 Support
 Point

    0                        3                    
      2                •Engineer provides 1 Suppor
t Point

    1                        4                    
      3                •Engineer provides 1 Suppor
t Point

    2                        5                    
      4                •Engineer provides 1 Suppor
t Point

    3                        6                    
      5                •Engineer provides 1 Suppor
t Point
                                                  
                         •1st Soldier/Qtrmaster incurs no Econ/Labs penalty

17.3.3.2) Under a Civ2-like system instead of a SMAC-like system, a similar schedule of Specialist effectiveness could be devised using mobilization, war morale (vis-a-vis sneak attacks, atrocities, etc), government type, etc.
[This message has been edited by Straybow (edited March 19, 2001).]

	19-03-2001 15:12									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Don't forget that the "city" population isn't necessarily the entire population, only the population that is economically tied to the primary city in the province/state/region that the civ city represents. The province will many rural villages engaged in subsistence farming with no ties to the modeled economy, and often military units are drawn from such people.

While the size of each pop unit in the city is non-linear the size of each military unit is not. A size 3 city is 60k = 20k/pop, while a size 10 city is 550k = 55k/pop. If a military unit is only a couple thousand men the larger cities won't notice the population diverted to a few units. Also, loss of the unit in the field occurs at casualty rates of 25-50%, the survivors being reassigned to other units or returning home.

	19-03-2001 19:50									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Straybow, thanks for List excerpt I missed.
It's a bit too much related to SMAC, while it seems that Firaxis is leaving lot of SMAC concepts on the dust (no chassis, clean reactor, special abilities, etc.)

I'm afraid I must dissent ( )from your:

quote: "city" population isn't necessarily the entire population, only the population that is economically tied to the primary city in the province/state/region that the civ city represents. The province will many rural villages engaged in subsistence farming with no ties to the modeled economy, and often military units are drawn from such people.

May be I'm missing somewhat, but you must define if game population is reproduced by City Pop or not. You can't tell Rural population is not reproduced BUT it's used to form armies.

Some gamers told that city pop reproduce the whole province pop, assigned as workers on the fields or reserved as specialist for dedicated duty.

Rural pop was (and mostly still is) a large source of food and a mid level source of trade (think about town market and holiday market, where Rural pop come to city to buy and sell).

On another view, are we speaking of population as a whole (women and children included) or are we speaking about workforce only? Because military efforts grabbed a lot more than a bunch of valid (in military sense) workers.
Romans had a rule to have men from the same family on duties in different military units, just to lessen the risk of "Save private Ryan" situation, where whole families risked to disappear for war killing.

quote: Also, loss of the unit in the field occurs at casualty rates of 25-50%, the survivors being reassigned to other units or returning home

Sure, units in reality retreats too, to be replenished or disbanded for heavy loss. Prisoners of war where enslaved or killed, only in modern age they start to be kept in Prisoner camps, to be returned after war end.

If Civ III will add PoW instead of total unit destruction (unlikely, they only spoke about fast units retreating as in SMAC ) I'll agree with you about unit loss not equal to all soldiers killed.
As is, Civ units gone are gone in full glory and forever.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	20-03-2001 11:34									#37
	Put an end to popups!

Admiral

quote: Some gamers told that city pop reproduce the whole province pop, assigned as workers on the fields or reserved as specialist for dedicated duty. Rural pop was (and mostly still is) a large source of food and a mid level source of trade (think about town market and holiday market, where Rural pop come to city to buy and sell).

	20-03-2001 14:32									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Youngsun, I know you are one of them, I do my best to carefully read all posts, especially if they reply to me

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant