18-04-2002 05:25									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN Tell that to R.E. Walsh, editor, Proceedings of the second internation conference on Creationism... Tell that to Don DeYoung, Creation Ex Nihilo... Tell that to R.E. Walsh, editor, Proceedings of the second internation conference on Creationism,

All your sources are biased to Creationism! Look above! On the other hand, many scientists r Christians themselves and they are at least open-minded enough to acknowledge the credibility and belivability of the theory...

P.S. I was going to write some more about how silly your "proves" are, but it seems a lot of people did already... All in all, you keep ignoring parts of these so-called evidences...

Also, you said you want evidences, and then u'll believe. I gave u some already, and instead of disproving them or responding about them, you avoided them and gave things of your own... hmm... Care to keep your promise??

Spicytimothy

	18-04-2002 05:26									#152
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well said PH. i agree 100%.

even though your point of view was fed to me.

	18-04-2002 05:30									#154
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I never said that Religious leaders are moral. they are not perfect, that would be foolish to think that. And i never said thesiests are perfect eaither. In Fact I dont believe in any one religion. I dont believe in Evolution.

Anyone is capable of doing evil, Religious or not. However if you have read the bible you will see that it teaches us this. Many times in the bible religious leaders who were supposed to be great men did evil things. Religious leaders still continue to do evil things. The problem is that people let the very things that the bible teaches us not to do happen. things like Greed, Racism, Hatred, etc. The Same things that Darwin himself was emmersed in. Darwin the creater of The Theory of Evolution, the theory that you all base your beliefes on.

I am sorry for you all that you dont understand

	18-04-2002 05:32									#155
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PH i think you should follow your own advice

	18-04-2002 05:33									#156
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You can be sorry for 'us' all you like.

Doesn't make you right though.

	18-04-2002 05:34									#157
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Spicy Timothy, Where is your evidence?

what page?

	18-04-2002 05:35									#158
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Your right, it doesnt make me right.

However, time will tell, and hopefully that will be enough to help you all understand.

	18-04-2002 05:35									#159
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i don't want your pity Draco, you can have it back.

your general beliefs are certainly not without merit, but the way you present them - by denouncing the beliefs of others - are never going to convince anybody.
nobody has all the answers (least of all me), but if all you can do is look down your nose at people who disagree with you then this debate is indeed, as you said earlier, pointless.

	18-04-2002 05:35									#160
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I do, Draco, I do, I question, I learn, I am a strong proponent of the scientific method. I know what I consider to be true, and I know why I do, I am well versed on it and can explain and defend my viewpoint. I can change my mind for a reasonable argument. Alas, you have not presented one Draco.

	18-04-2002 05:37									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN Spicy Timothy, Where is your evidence? what page?

3 or 4 i think... Tell me what u think. and thanks for replying I prefer talk with evidence or backings rather than the personal attacks and word-picking...


Spicytimothy

	18-04-2002 05:38									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN Well obviously i have wasted my time. i wont any more. I didnt think that this argument would go on like this. I almost feel sad for some of you. Asher you chose to mock my question and then attemt to belittle me. I guess that is your answer and i feel sorry for you. How ever i will answer your question You think that the creator snaped his fingers and bam here we are? Try reading Genesis. Creation gives us purpose. It gives us morals. It Distinguishes right and wrong. Granted different religions have mixed and somewhat strange views of what is right and wrong its still better than what Evolution offers us. What morals does Evolution give us? How does evolution tell us whats right and wrong? It tells us the same right and wrong, morals that Adolf Hitler used when he Murdered millions of people. Tell me, how much respect for life did Hitler have. Hitler believed in Evolution very much. So much that he thought he would use it to his benifit.

Adolf Hitler believed in evolution and killed millions of people, therefore Evolutionists are bastards.

I'm a bastard on account of my own personality.

Evolution has nothing to do with it.

Would you prefer I made a list of all of the religious conflicts that killed millions of people BECAUSE of religion?

	18-04-2002 05:41									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Would you prefer I made a list of all of the religious conflicts that killed millions of people BECAUSE of religion?

Good Point

Spicytimothy

	18-04-2002 05:42									#164
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger You just don't listen, do you? I'm particularly interested in seeing a link to the fellow who says that the sun is burning its fuel, seeing as how that's the most blatant lie you've presented thus far. All you do by presenting a list of names is prove that ignorance loves company. We already knew that, now try presenting something worthwhile.

It's argument by appeal to authority. Or claimed authority, in this case.

If anyone should tell the many people on Draco's list, it is Draco himself. To give him his money back, if he bought the books.

I do find his handwaving to be amusing, though. Perhaps he should randomly capitalize several words per paragraph, to increase their level of truth of course.

	18-04-2002 05:47									#165
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Time has told.

We are Right.

The issue with religious folks, is they can't admit a fundamental tennent of their belief structure is patently false, or the whole house of cards will fall. Ultimately they have to evolve their religion, as they have many times before... funny that isn't it?

	18-04-2002 05:47									#166
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Fossils
- fossils of animals
- preserved leaves
- preserved mammoths
- dating methods
- transitional forms eg. Archaeopteryx
- strata
Continental Drift
- plate tectonics
- the way the continents fit together
- how the rocks closer to the middle of the Atlantic are younger
- distribution of fossils across oceans, eg. South America and South Africa
- formation of mountains trhough folding
the Big Bang
- why it's false
- also: craters on the Moon
- lava flows on the moon, despite the fact that it's geologically inactive
the Ice Age
- moraine etc. features typical of Ice advancing

What this? Your kidding right?

The only thing i see to Debunk about your part about fossles is Archaeopteryx, Claimed to be transition from a dinosour to a bird. Well if you were more in touch with current scientific fact you would know that it was later to be proved just a bird and not lizzard like.

Big bang, ive already said why its false, iits insulting to intelligence to say something was created from an explosion. However there does remain the fact that everything in the univers is moving away from a specific location.

I'm amazed that with geology, biology, physics, astronomy and chemistry fitting together like jigsaws disclaim evolution, some people still believe in it.

	18-04-2002 05:47									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN Creation gives us purpose. It gives us morals. It Distinguishes right and wrong.

Bullshit. All you're saying by this is that you believe in Creation because you want a God to spank you when you're naughty and give you cookies when you're good. Yet despite your dismal ethics, you have the gall to pity us.

You can have your spankings and cookies without all of that magical nonsense, Draco.

	18-04-2002 05:49									#168
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Time has told. We are Right. The issue with religious folks, is they can't admit a fundamental tennent of their belief structure is patently false, or the whole house of cards will fall. Ultimately they have to evolve their religion, as they have many times before... funny that isn't it?

You'd probably better change that to some religious folks. The clergy running the Catholic school where I took my first biology class didn't seem to have any problem with the Theory of Evolution.

	18-04-2002 05:50									#169
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quote: Big bang, ive already said why its false, iits insulting to intelligence to say something was created from an explosion.

It must be false if you can't understand it!

	18-04-2002 05:50									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN You think that the creator snaped his fingers and bam here we are? Try reading Genesis. Creation gives us purpose. It gives us morals. It Distinguishes right and wrong. Granted different religions have mixed and somewhat strange views of what is right and wrong its still better than what Evolution offers us. What morals does Evolution give us? How does evolution tell us whats right and wrong? It tells us the same right and wrong, morals that Adolf Hitler used when he Murdered millions of people. Tell me, how much respect for life did Hitler have. Hitler believed in Evolution very much. So much that he thought he would use it to his benifit.

Are you kidding?

Can you read?

Did you ever read your precious Bible?

Do you know the meaning of the word 'genocide'?

Perhaps you should start with reading Joshua 10 and 11 -it's part of your precious Bible- before you discuss 'Evolution'.
For your information: Joshua is the sixth book of the Bible, the word of God.
And when you like to read about 'genocide', violence, killing, manslaughter etc., your Bible will prove to be a cornucopia.

When you continue reading your Bible, you might notice that God as portrayed in your Bible is 'a man of unreflective self-confidence, intrusive-to aggressive habits', 'obsessed with the physical manifestations of reproductive fertility: nocturnal emissions, menstruation, and the variety of permitted and forbidden sexual couplings'. (J.Miles; 'God, A Biography')

When you have read and truly understood your Bible you might try serious, scientific subject-matter like 'Evolution'.
By the way, Darwin is an inspired writer; I doubt whether you will be able to rate him at his value.

Did you know God likes pancakes? (Genesis 18)

	18-04-2002 05:52									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN Big bang, ive already said why its false, iits insulting to intelligence to say something was created from an explosion. However there does remain the fact that everything in the univers is moving away from a specific location.

Oversimplified explanation, for an oversimplified student:

An explosion is energy release.
Energy is matter (among other things)
Matter is life (among other things)

	18-04-2002 05:54									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Sinapus You'd probably better change that to some religious folks. The clergy running the Catholic school where I took my first biology class didn't seem to have any problem with the Theory of Evolution.

They'd already evolved... good for them.

Time was when the Catholic church were burning heretic scientists.

	18-04-2002 05:55									#173
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quote: Harrison I do, Draco, I do, I question, I learn, I am a strong proponent of the scientific method. I know what I consider to be true, and I know why I do, I am well versed on it and can explain and defend my viewpoint. I can change my mind for a reasonable argument. Alas, you have not presented one Draco.

Ok then. SO a majority of you would say im wrong. I am brainwashed.

So unbrainwash me.

Please

Give me something that would make me believe in Evolution.

I obviously cant give you something to make you believe in Creationism so maybe im wrong.

	18-04-2002 05:58									#174
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An explosion is energy release.
Energy is matter (among other things)
Matter is life (among other things)

Ok how many explosions have been conducted that have produced matter.

	18-04-2002 06:04									#175
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S. Kroeze

I have said that i dont believe in any one religion. I never said the bible is 100% correct. That doesnt mean there isnt a creator.

Lionburgger, from your posts i dont see that you have much understanding yourself.

	18-04-2002 06:05									#176
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I really hate to jump into this but what the heck. i was raised with the belief that the bible was god's word and 100% accurate. Then as I hit my teens I started reading more about various topics. After 10 years of wobbling one way then the next, i finally settled on being an atheist that believes in an afterlife that isn't controlled by a supreme being. That being said, I believe in evolution and you don't need fossils for proof. Study the history of dogs. Many many years ago, I did some research on dogs (forgive my mind for no longer remembering exact number or species of dogs, but it should be easy to look up for those so inclined), and 2000 years ago there were very few dog breeds. man learned thru trial and error that breeding certain dogs together for a few generations lead to dogs that looked nothing like the original breeds. I dont claim to understand genetics, but to me if you can create a new dog breed in under 100 years, then nature could easily create breeds over millions of years especially on islands and similar "closed" environments. Its too bad the 5-legged frogs in the northern states arent left alone, it would be interesting to see if they become more common than 4-leggers in a million years. I also believe in survival of the fittest as you can see in nature today that strong animals get to breed far more often than weak ones (at least the males ones do, but as with humans, any female animal can breed as often as she wants )

Purhaps we can have the Inquisition wonder that causes all science to be lost by religious civs

	18-04-2002 06:06									#177
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Also its funny that some of you keep comparing creationism and Magical. There is nothing magical about it.

	18-04-2002 06:08									#178
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Breeding Dogs is called Microevolution. That is true.

You breed a dog its still a dog. would anyone like to try breeding a dog into a horse?

	18-04-2002 06:09									#179
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger All you're saying by this is that you believe in Creation because you want a God to spank you when you're naughty and give you cookies when you're good.

God gives cookies for being good? Hmmmm, i might have to reconsider being an atheist. Why wasnt this cookie giveaway part of the bible?

	18-04-2002 06:11									#180
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Carbon dating?

Explain how a Human Skeliton was found embeded in a rock dated to be over 200 million years old.