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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
That would have been Justin Ontong?
Actually he struck me as looking like a rather talented player, albeit as you say under a bit too much pressure. He reminded me very much of Ken Rutherford just starting out in his first encounter with the Windies in the Windies. Ended up at the end of the series with a high score of about 60 or so and an average of about 8 IIRC.
I hope he manages to bounce back the way Rutherford did. |
Yep. They have some talented young players. The problem was, they were all on a hiding to nothing in that series. Talk about being thrown to the wolves. There's an argument that young players should be tossed in the deep end to sink or swim. If they swim, fine. If they sink, their careers can be blighted forever. And to be picked on the basis of a quota made life even more difficult.
They were, sadly, let down by their experienced players - Gibbes, who hasn't got a clue about discipline; Pollock, who isn't a captain's bootlace and has lost his nip with the ball; Kallis, who seemed to fade mentally as a batsman and who shouldn't be bowling first change; etc.
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Ntini OTOH (whose first name completely eludes me) had a pretty successful series overall with the ball. Was he another brand new introduction or had he played in ODI's/Tests before? |
Makiah Ntini. He'd had some Test and ODI experience. Very fine prospect, but still very one-dimensional. Lacks any sort of variety and bowls too many boundary balls. Nanti Hayward, who was injured for most of the series in SA, is another young quick with potential. But they both desperately need guidance.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Well, that's what they said. It was, at the time, part of a bigger gripe the NZers had about the funding of, apart from other things, the Super 12 competition. They wanted a better deal in relation to the TV rights. Which was the main reason why NZ denied the Australians an extra Super 12 team. Somehow, NZ allowed the fiscal argument to bleed across into the World Cup debate.
Cal, it was never a case that there would be NO ADVERTISING allowed at the grounds. The point was, the World Cup has its sponsors who would be advertising - which is to say, in temporary place of the existing advertisers. In fact, what the NZ administrators stood to lose from the temporary disappearance of the existing advertising would, obviously, have been made up for by the massive income the World Cup would have generated in other ways. The NZ administrators DID try to argue that it would cost them the existing advertising revenue, but the argument was always fallacious.
I can only think that the NZ administrators were trying to call the World Cup's bluff. If they weren't - if there was no strategy behind their thinking - then they're even bigger idiots than I thought. |
Sounds about right to me. Its unfortunate that it had to happen this way. I think it would have been good for NZ to be included in the RWC. Sounds like the bickering was over piddly bullsh*t. Its a shame they overlooked the huge positives that would have come out of it (tourism etc).
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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What's more, apparently, NZ's very last minute, high pressure lobbying of the IRB - Helen Clarke even got involved - ended up working against them. The English and some of the European Unions, initially sympathetic, were p***ed off.
I'm sure, come World Cup time, the NZ fans will be apoplectic. I suspect, though, that the NZRFU will simply blame Australia, painting it as a payback for NZ's denial of a fourth Super 12 team. The reality is that, while it has been sweet revenge, Australia simply made a common sense business decision. As anyone in their right mind would.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Hmmm - can't agree with that Finbar. The attitude in England is very must that the exclusion of NZ as co-hosts is a disaster for the tournament. Very much a "hand the Aussies the trophy now" situation as we all know your Union will engineer every trick in the book to make you win. I hope that this time at least you have to play a top four side in the final.  |
Hey Havak! Long time no rugby prattle!  I was hoping you'd sniff out the rugby thread and make an appearance.  I'm back from seven or eight months solid 7-days-a-week work.
Anyway - I knew what your attitude would be , but I wonder what the attitude of your Union was. I wonder which way they voted. Certainly the Poms and some of the European Unions were known to be sympathetic to the Kiwis, but my mail was that it didn't flow through to the vote.
As to the final - well, I hope you're good enough to make it to the final this time! 
BTW, did you hear that Bob Dwyer - fresh from taking the NSW Waratahs to a victory over the Brumbies, handing them their third straight loss - publicly slagged off Georgie Gregan? Called him arrogant? Said his backchatting the ref was costing his team? Tee-hee, master of the psychological gameplay, our Bob.
I also heard that Timmy Horan broke his arm!
Gee, I've missed our mature, unbiased examinations of international rugby in general and your acceptance of Martin Johnson as a mindless thug in particular.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Typical I guess - I sniffed out the rugger thread only to have work blow up and stop me coming back to it anytime soon. |
Can't work be a pain in the butt? Always getting in the way of more important pursuits?
quote:
Nice to see Duncan 'fists of fury' McCrae becoming so Influential in the waratahs revival btw - O'Gara still speaks fondly of him I hear. |
That explosion of Duncan's was quite mindboggling. These days, finally, he's showing the ability a lot of people - including him! - always knew he had. After the previous two Waratah administrations wouldn't even give him a try. In fact, he's been instrumental in the Waratahs consistency this year. Very talented player.
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England make a final is one thing, and good enough they are on their day, but to maike a final in Australia - thats a bit beyond them I feel - it's not been a happy hunting ground for them it has to be said. They are getting better though, honest. |
Actually, I think it's going to be a great World Cup. The Wallabies are going to have to lift their game from their most recent efforts, but this Super 12 season has tossed up some very interesting fresh local talent. I suspect that, barring accidents, England will be in there for a very long time.
One person to watch out for is the Waratahs No 8, David Lyons. He toured last year, but he's now really maturing. He's about 21, 6'4", about 17 stone, but incredibly mobile with terrific skills.
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Nobody throws psych bombs like Bob Dwyer - of course with Gregan he may have been beeing totally earnest - they guy doesn't seem worthy of the legacy of Wallaby captain? |
In terms of talent, he does. But he is arrogant. It's part and parcel of the whole Brumbies outlook which I've mentioned several times before. The thing is, it's one thing to be arrogant when you're winning; it's obviously another when you're losing. Methinks you need a lot more to draw upon than arrogance when you're trying to resurrect a team. And the more pressure the Brumbies have been under, the worse George has reacted. Which is telling. Regardless, he's still a very inspiring player.
And the Waratahs consistency this year - their strength, discipline, commitment and strategies - really is a testament to Bob Dwyer as a coach. They mightn't go all the way, but he has turned a team of pretenders into something very good.
quote:
btw What has happened to George Smith - when you came here in November Waugh got picked over him I think - now Waugh is a gritty physical player but he doesn't whip opposition ball like Smithy? Oh yeah - and Harrison looked a shadow of the player that stole ball from the 'thug' and in so doing probably beat the Lions. |
George Smith has suffered a couple of problems. The Brumbies have been forced onto the back foot lately. He's been spending a lot more time worrying about defence with less opportunity to do what he does really well - score at the breakdown. His other problem has been the refs' interpretations at the breakdown. Not that there was any problem with what he was doing; most breakdowns now seem to end up with penalties for the most obscure, arcane reasons. For that matter, Waugh has suffered the same way this season.
Justin Harrison has suffered along with the rest of the Brumbies. Steve Larkham, who has barely been sighted this season, most of all. They're now, suddenly, all on the back foot, having to play a style of game that's foreign to them relative to the last few years. This year is a big test for the Brumbies. They've lost a number of key players from last season for various reasons. They miss Jim Williams - No 8 - badly. Maybe they'll turn it around. There's still plenty of talent there - it really boils down to character.
[quoteJonno is many things - but mindless is probably not one of them. [/QUOTE]
Late one night on one of the cable sports channels, I caught the doco they made about the Lions tour here. It was a 2- or 3-parter. Behind the scenes with the Lions for the whole tour. Fascinating stuff, with none of the language censored. Have you seen it? Jonno did, actually, come across as an interesting chap.
Last edited by finbar on 25-04-2002 at 06:50
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:19
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quote:
Can't work be a pain in the butt? Always getting in the way of more important pursuits? |
Very nicely put - that sums it up well.
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Very talented player. |
From what I have seen of NSW this year I would have to agree. I hope his temper is well under control - the most bizarre thing about that incident last year was that the lad he went for is rated one of the nicest blokes who went on tour. I could have understood it if he went for Healey for example 
quote:
England will be in there for a very long time. |
There are still some significant weaknesses to correct. They still don't adjust well to playing off the back foot, as France proved this season. If the forwards establish some dominacne and they can keep goin forward however they are now capable of punishing any team in the world from anywhere on the park. As an England fan who remembers the days a decade ago where the backs never saw the ball this is a change I do appreciate.
The other problem is lack of consistency on the wing - we don't have any Roffs or Tunes (but then who else does?). Luger has done his anterior Crucian ligament and is out for a year so may miss RWC already, this leaves us with Cohen (big, powerful but lacking pace) and Healey (small, very fast, very verbal) as likely first choices. That in itself should be interesting - the return of Oz to Oz.
btw regarding Mr Healey I hear he and Justin did get that drink in November last year and buried the hatchet (though not in Healeys head)
Yes I remember your points about the ACT boys from before but I couldn't resist a small bait on it again. Regarding Gregan as a player I would choose him ahead of either first choice England player anytime. There is a 19 year old lad at Leicester, Harry Ellis, who I think has the potemntial to be Gregan-esque (if thats a valid expression?) and doesn't have the arrogance, despite playing for the four times Champions up here - one to watch for you (he's only England A so far), and for my part I'll keep an eye out for Lyons.
And yes Dwyer may say some very strange things but he is a great coach if his players can adjust to his style (he got blown form Bristol here because a lot of the west country folks running the club couldn't handle Bob's frankness apparently).
Williams is playing for the irish province Munster and it's very obvious he is a class player. Sadly he too is injured and will miss this weekends European cup semi-finals (maybe it's our weather up here that makes Aussies muscles brittle?).
As you say this is ACT's big test - they rate themselves as the world's best club side so it's time to buckle down and show it. Currently I have to say they fall well short of Tigers in this respect.
I have to say I had noticed that refs have been very strict at the breakdowns this season so it has to be an IRB thing? Smith isn't alone in struggling with that one, but to realise his potential he needs to learn to nail that defensive side of his play like, dare I say, a Back or a Kronfeld?
If that Lions thing was Up Close and personal yes I've seen it and it is interesting - funny even. I've also read both Jonno's and Healeys book and its very clear now that the Lions had the wrong coach entirely (just ask Wales) but this is long enouigh so I'll leave Henry for another time.
Jonno - he is a complex guy. Despite appearances he is very smart, he has an encyclopedic knowledge of the law book which gets him into all kinds of trouble with refs as I'm sure you appreciate, he can motivate a team in a way that is hard to finger - certainbly England just are not the same without him - but he has that achilles heal that is his 'red mist'. Despite this flaw he is still one of the very best players and captains I have ever seen play the game. I'm still hopeful Ealesy can be persuaded to play a Baa-baas game so we can see him and Jonno together at some point.
One last question for Cali this time - how is Mitchell doing? I liked what I heard of him when he was with England and I'm sure he will take NZ to a new level?
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Caligastia
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Nothing wrong with following the Blues, they are my home team, so I would love to see them win, but I dont think they can do it this year.
The Blues won the first two super 12s as you probably know, but that was back when they had the likes of Zinzan Brooke, Sean Fitzpatrick and Jonah Lomu.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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The only Super 12 trophy goes to the winner of the final. From memory, finishing first or second on the table - prior to the finals - gives you a home semi, a big prize in itself.
I suspect the Crusaders will probably take it out this year. They're back playing with the consistency - and often brilliance - of a couple of years ago. It's a very big ask for the Waratahs to go all the way in what is their first truly competitive season. They're playing with incredible confidence, but that is such a fragile thing. Who know with the Brumbies? Their turnaround will need to be extraordinary. The Queensland Reds don't have the depth of class and there are still rumors circulating about problems between coach and players.
The Blues remain the interesting team. Capable of terrific rugby, but also capable of throwing it away.
This week it's the Waratahs -v- Hurricanes in Sydney. Another record crowd, no doubt. But, as the Hurricanes proved against the Brumbies, they can get in your face and upset you.
Brumbies -v- Highlanders in Canberra. I bet Laurie Mains is plotting something. Big, big test for the Brumbies, who have a growing list of injuries to harm their cause.
Crusaders - v- Cats in South Africa. Should be a walk in the park.
Blues -v- Stormers in Auckland. Blues should win.
Queensland Reds -v- Sharks in South Africa. Flatley and Herbert are both in extreme doubt for the Reds, who might, finally, be exposed as pretenders. The thing is, the Reds are in the top four, but no one here can quite work out how or why.
We shall see, we shall see.
Last edited by finbar on 26-04-2002 at 04:44
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Caligastia
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I definitely agree with your assessment there Finbar! I would love to see the Blues make it to the semis, and they probably will, but I cant see them making it to the final, much as I would like to see that.
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23-04-2002 17:28
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