23-05-2002 12:56									#211
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Oh yeah there's a few of them about for sure

I'm not sure who is involved with the Pumas but I do think elsewhere Kirwan taking on Italy is as ill advised as when Henry took on Wales though? Neither country has the quality and depth of players to do justice to NZ coaches.

Smith on the other hand has taken over Northampton in the domestic League here and turned them around from relegation fodder to solid top half safety - but then they have a core of solid English players to build around.

Its also interesting though that the flow has been reversed in a way - as you know your current coach was honed into the real deal under the wing of Clive Woodward.

	23-05-2002 18:55									#212
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Henry did ok with Wales except for the last couple of games. They did manage to beat South Africa under his coaching.

Hopefully the new All Blacks coach can toughen up our forwards a bit. Im sure Clive taught him a thing or two in that department.

So who do you think will win the super12 final this weekend? I reckon the Crusaders will do it.

	24-05-2002 17:20									#213
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*bump*

	26-05-2002 17:01									#214
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Btw finbar, did you happen to catch that story a few nights ago about a big Queensland push to divert most of their upcoming talent to the AFL? ie: Away from Union and League (Not that the latter would be a big loss ).

Didn't see it. But it's a crap idea.

quote: I saw it but couldn't understand the reasoning behind it. No other country plays AFL so why on earth would they want to focus on this over the others.

That's why it's a crap idea. No one in their right mind would choose such an isolated game as Australian Rules over a game with an international footing. There's also next to nothing in common between Australian Rules and the two rugby codes. Totally different prerequisites.

	26-05-2002 17:26									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Finbar might be disappointed in me on that - but I doubt he would be surprised.

	26-05-2002 17:32									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So who do you think will win the super12 final this weekend? I reckon the Crusaders will do it.

Never in doubt. At least Steve Larkham's elbow injury isn't as bad as first feared.

I'll treat the Wallaby-bashing that went on while I was away as the mindless blather that it was by totally ignoring it.

	27-05-2002 07:41									#217
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Fantastic super12 final! A real nailbiter till the end. Obviously Im very happy to see a NZ team win, especially undefeated, and hope the success will translate to The All Blacks winning the Tri-nations this year.

Good to see you back Finbar, did you get to watch the final before knowing the result?

	27-05-2002 08:00									#218
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Nice to see you back, too, Caligastia. On the basis that my hol was only ten hours drive away, I remain bitterly jealous.

Typical of the stupidity of the broadcast rights situation, Channel 7 only has the free-to-air replay rights for S12 games played within Australia. Ergo, any matches played in SA or NZ - the final, for example - don't get a free-to-air outing except in highlights form in the news. But it was broadcast on ABC radio. I listened to the first half before I had to go out. Oddly enough, it was the first time I'd ever heard a Union match broadcast on radio and it was interesting. It's a much harder game to call on radio than RL with that game's tedious predictability.

	27-05-2002 08:51									#219
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Oddly enough, it was the first time I'd ever heard a Union match broadcast on radio and it was interesting. It's a much harder game to call on radio than RL with that game's tedious predictability.

uuuhhhh...tedious predictability? I presume you are referring to the s12 final, not rugby in general as that would be sacrilege!



Do I detect a hint of sour grapes?

	27-05-2002 10:03									#220
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Read the sentence again! Union is a much harder game to call than League because of that game's - which is to say, League's - tedious predictability. By which I mean, calling six hit-ups and a kick is a lot easier - because it's so predictable - than trying to anticipate what's going to happen in the much more flexible Unoin.

Sheesh!

	27-05-2002 13:19									#221
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Well heck we had to keep the thread ticking. What do you expect a Kiwi and a Pom to do???

I tried to emphasise it was not the Wallabies I was bashing, though surely? It's that 'soccer' type success following 'fan' who don't know the game from AFL I dislike. It's a growing problem here too (soccer fans infiltrating Tigers because we are successful and the soccer team isn't), and where I find overt rudeness to the opposition I try to stamp on it.

Anyway onto less mean spirited stuff on my part - I have only seen the highlights but what a final that looked like. Some truly immense defence by Cantebury, and the Brumbies did their berth in the final justice after all. Very impressed. What we want now is a Tigers-Crusaders show down - but we will not get it sadly.

Two other games of interest to me this weekend. Tigers retained the European cup beating Munster 15-9 in the final and outscoring them two tries to none. Again defence was the key and Tigers were immense in that department. They did not concede a single try in the semi or the final and you have to say they were worthy winners. They were forty thousand broken Irish hearts in Cardiff on Saturday night - and at least one very happy drunken Englishman

There was a little controversy in that the dark arts of the flanker were caught on camera for once - in the closing minutes as Munster put in to the scrum in Tigers 22 the scrum half was mortally embarrassed as Tiger's openside, the ageless Neil Back, tapped the ball out of his hand and gave a 'strike' against the head. The French officals missed it entirely (and I was at the far end so I did too - but I heard all about it 40000 times after the game!!!)

The other game is one that sadly throws doubt on my ability to read the game - McQueens superstar Baa-baas were handily put away by the English development squad 53-29. It was a fantastic game and the young guns played superbly. It says a lot about the strength in depth we have right now - and maybe the Argentina tour will be more successful than I feared. McQueen need sto get a few training sessions in with these guys and make them a team - I still think he can turn them around and overcome the Celts handily.

	27-05-2002 17:03									#222
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Read the sentence again! Union is a much harder game to call than League because of that game's - which is to say, League's - tedious predictability. By which I mean, calling six hit-ups and a kick is a lot easier - because it's so predictable - than trying to anticipate what's going to happen in the much more flexible Unoin. Sheesh!

Oops! hehe. Never mind.

	27-05-2002 17:57									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Well heck we had to keep the thread ticking. What do you expect a Kiwi and a Pom to do???

Well, quite. Bang two empty vessels together and you get a din, don't you.

quote: I tried to emphasise it was not the Wallabies I was bashing, though surely? It's that 'soccer' type success following 'fan' who don't know the game from AFL I dislike. It's a growing problem here too (soccer fans infiltrating Tigers because we are successful and the soccer team isn't), and where I find overt rudeness to the opposition I try to stamp on it.

You're always going to get penisheads, regardless. But they're a minority.

quote: The other game is one that sadly throws doubt on my ability to read the game - McQueens superstar Baa-baas were handily put away by the English development squad 53-29. It was a fantastic game and the young guns played superbly. It says a lot about the strength in depth we have right now - and maybe the Argentina tour will be more successful than I feared. McQueen need sto get a few training sessions in with these guys and make them a team - I still think he can turn them around and overcome the Celts handily.

But the Barbs were missing a few big guns, weren't they? Particularly Kiwis? I know a couple of them were injured in the last round of S12.

	27-05-2002 19:24									#224
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quote: Well, quite. Bang two empty vessels together and you get a din, don't you.

Okay, I deserved that!

quote: But they're a minority.

I think the really big games draw them out to be honest? There were a few near me on Saturday, from both sides it has to be said. We must be vigilant against them ruining our game.

quote: But the Barbs were missing a few big guns, weren't they? Particularly Kiwis? I know a couple of them were injured in the last round of S12.

I missed the pre-amble and first 20 mins but it still looked like a powerful team to me. Josh (he didn't get off the bench Sat sadly) and Jonah played - the latter funnily enough being exposed badly because they turned him in defence several times (as mentioned way back in the thread).

I'll check out the report and see who missed the game.

	28-05-2002 04:20									#225
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Things are starting to warm up here selectionwise. The Australian A team plays the Canadians on the weekend. The result will be academic - the Canadians having just been thumped by the NSW Country team - but the selectors' initiatives are interesting.

Unsurprisingly, they've picked ex-League star Wendell Sailor on the wing. There's a huge push - mainly from Queensland - to slot him into the Wallaby team. Which amounts to a joke. Sadly, Ben Tune is injured once more, but there are several wingers a mile in front of Wendell for a Wallaby guernsey. Apparently Wendell led the S12 stats for the most tackles broken. Whatever that means. Of more interest is the selection of ex-League star Matt Rogers at inside centre. He had an outstanding debut season for NSW at full back and he's a very versatile, creative player - one of those rare players whose speed and stepping lets him create gaps where there aren't (or weren't) any. There's no doubt he's being groomed as a back up for Steve Larkham at 5/8.

The truly interesting selection is Daniel Heenan in the second row. He's 20, played part of one S12 game for Queensland this season and is a John Eales protegee. A former Schoolboys captain, a lot of people - including Eales - think he's the goods.

Eddie Jones said this morning that at least 4 of the A team are serious candidates for the Wallaby line up against the French next month. Sailor is, nominally, one of the 4, but I suspect the real candidates are Rogers, NSW winger Scott Staniforth, NSW #8 David Lyons who will probably play as a flanker, and the experienced and versatile Matt Cockbain.

	28-05-2002 13:20									#226
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Some names to watch out for there. I had heard the good buizz around Rogers. And frankly anyone who Eales rates as the real deal I am definitely going to keep an eye on. Did the ARU finance the move of Rogers and Sailor across codes - if so that is probably where the main push to get them in the green and gold comes from?

The RFU here bank rolled Jason Robinson and Henry Paul crossing codes and whilst the former has been a revelation the latter has yet to show anything in the fifteen man game - a good sevens man though.

I actually forgot that as France visit you Ireland are popping over to NZ for a stuffing. That explains why several Kiwis didn't show for the Barbarians and also why Cullen and Lomu have flown back to training camp. Neither man looked like his past self at the weekend but of course it will be different come the tests.

McQueen has problems - injuries everywhere...

Backs Thomas Castaignede, Christophe Dominici, Stephane Glas, and Pieter Rossouw have pulled out, while forwards Naka Drotske, Todd Blackadder and Kupu Vanisi are all out of contention.

Other absentees include French lock Abdel Benazzi. Benazzi has suffered a family bereavement.

Newcastle's Doddie Weir and wing Jamie Noon, London Irish's Aussie lock Ryan Strudwick and Leicester centre Ollie Smith have been drafted in.

Of the new boys Strudwick is a solid second row who can be comfortable at number 8 and Smith has enormous potential but has been badly off form lately. Weir is way past his best and Noon talented but not quite the real deal yet (for me). having said that it is Wales and Scotland they face so there's no real chance of another defeat really.

	28-05-2002 13:31									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Some names to watch out for there. I had heard the good buizz around Rogers. And frankly anyone who Eales rates as the real deal I am definitely going to keep an eye on. Did the ARU finance the move of Rogers and Sailor across codes - if so that is probably where the main push to get them in the green and gold comes from?

Yep, the ARU did the financing. Rogers is very, very talented and will earn his place by right. The push for Sailor is coming from Queensland. The parochial buggers. Sailor is a superb athlete but he's still struggling with the code. It's not yet - understandably - coming naturally. Methinks he also mightn't be the brightest soul on the park. Rogers' big advantage is that he played Rugby at school and afterwards, prior to going to RL. He's also pretty bright.

	28-05-2002 14:18									#228
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You can't always overcome narrow minded self interest with logic sadly. No one knows that more than a Tigers man who has to watch the RFU pick on his club time and time again as the London clubs whinge to them.

As NSW and Qland are the dual soul of the Aussie Union game (with apologies to ACT) if they push hard enough he may be fast-tracked as early as you fear. If he is not ready France are a team that will show it believe me. Paul came on in Paris and was made to look quite inept by the tenacious French backs.

	28-05-2002 19:53									#229
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Finbar-
Do you think the selection of Sailor for the Wallabies is partly motivated by the idea that it may encourage others to cross over from league to union?

	28-05-2002 22:51									#230
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Leicester, the european cup champions want to set up a match with the Super 12 champions, The Crusaders. Is this a joke? The Crusaders would destroy them!

	29-05-2002 01:41									#231
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A very common misconception in the SH I guess. So Canterbury are essentially the All Blacks? Tigers are essentially England. Play us up here and you will be blown away

Play us with northern officials (even French) and you will be handily put away

Play us in NZ or with those dire southern officals you are so fond of (you know, the ones who don't apply the laws of the game) and you might have a chance.

Did I rise to that Troll okay?

Okay - seriously now - there is not much of a gulf if any at all. Tigers are perfectly capable of beating Crusaders and very much capable of stuffing the Brumbies just like Canterbury did (ask Rod Kafer what he thinks of this - you might be surprised). You southern guys really need to clue up in the strength of our Leagues here - it would be an eye opener for you.

	29-05-2002 03:03									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Did I rise to that Troll okay?

quote: Okay - seriously now - there is not much of a gulf if any at all. Tigers are perfectly capable of beating Crusaders and very much capable of stuffing the Brumbies just like Canterbury did (ask Rod Kafer what he thinks of this - you might be surprised). You southern guys really need to clue up in the strength of our Leagues here - it would be an eye opener for you.

Well I would certainly like to see a match between the two. We need more North vs South type competitions, playing England once every couple of years just doesnt cut it!

We "colonials" need to put you "Guv'nors" in your place regularly otherwise you start thinking you can beat us. It must be tough to crash back to reality every couple of years like that.

Just kidding.

Actually I would rank England as second most likely to win the WC (behind the All Blacks of course!) - hows that for generous?!

	29-05-2002 05:00									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Finbar- Do you think the selection of Sailor for the Wallabies is partly motivated by the idea that it may encourage others to cross over from league to union?

No. The push for Sailor is largely media-based, and mainly Queensland media-based. Rugby's profile here is now so high that that sort of encouragement isn't needed. League is really battling. Last week's RL State of Origin match - League's game of the year, bigger than any Grand Final - only pulled 55,000 to a stadium that can seat 88,000. And there were, apparently, a lot of freebies in the 55,000. OTOH, tickets to Bledisloe Cup and Test matches are selling out within hours.

Sailor's probably in the top 5 wingers in the country, which isn't saying much when you've got 6 to choose from. Ben Tune, fit, would be well ahead of him. I think the wing selections will be inextricably linked with the full back and centres selections. You've got Chris Latham, Sterling Mortlock, Matt Burke, Matt Rogers, Andrew Walker, et all, all in the mix. Burke will probably finish up either in the centres or on one wing.

	29-05-2002 05:05									#234
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quote: Originally posted by finbar No. The push for Sailor is largely media-based, and mainly Queensland media-based. Rugby's profile here is now so high that that sort of encouragement isn't needed. League is really battling. Last week's RL State of Origin match - League's game of the year, bigger than any Grand Final - only pulled 55,000 to a stadium that can seat 88,000. And there were, apparently, a lot of freebies in the 55,000. OTOH, tickets to Bledisloe Cup and Test matches are selling out within hours.

I dont know whether to be happy or sad. On the one hand Im happy because league *spit* is losing popularity, but on the other hand this could mean stronger aussie rugby teams!

I cant wait for the tri-nations. Or should I say the two-nations (oz and NZ)

	29-05-2002 05:07									#235
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John Mitchell announced a 26-man AB squad for the Tests against Italy, Fiji and Ireland. There are 15 Crusaders - Reuben Thorne as captain, replacing the injured Anton Oliver - and including Jonah Lomu and Christian Cullen, both of whom had pretty ordinary - by their standards - S12 seasons.

	29-05-2002 05:11									#236
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Yeah, apparently John Mitchel is taking a gamble on those two.

"We've got a lot of work to do there, they also understand this,"

So he is hoping that their top form will once again re-emerge.

	29-05-2002 05:14									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I dont know whether to be happy or sad. On the one hand Im happy because league *spit* is losing popularity, but on the other hand this could mean stronger aussie rugby teams! I cant wait for the tri-nations. Or should I say the two-nations (oz and NZ)

League has always been doomed by its ridiculously narrow base. But the diehard League types are as diehard as ever. They will never let the game die. As someone observed the other day, League will probably continue on as a totally marginalised entity.

The only current RL player I'd be interested to see playing Rugby is the Newcastle half-back Andrew Johns. He's very, very gifted - sort of a miniature Steve Larkham. OTOH, his gifts are easier to display in League with its predictable structure. Whether he has the capacity to work outside the predictable structure is the question.

	29-05-2002 05:24									#238
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For a while there league was pretty popular. I guess its more accessable to the masses, so they got hooked for a while and then got bored.

No wonder the Auckland Warriors are such a joke considering RL in NZ is probably much less popular than in aussie.

RL is doomed. Here in the states nobody plays league, its all union.

From what I have seen over here they are building a strong competitive base and I would be surprised if they werent on the level of Wales, Scotland or Ireland in about 10 years. They did well against SA last year (only losing by 20 points) even though it was a second-string side.

	29-05-2002 07:28									#239
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I think it was more a case of RL having a higher profile than Union in Australia. While it has always been a religion in NZ, Union in Australia struggled along in its shamateur status with next to no publicity. You only really knew about it - and appreciated it - if you were born into it. Now, with professionalism and very shrewd marketing, Union in Australia is available to the masses and they're discovering it's a much more interesting game than RL. As well, Union offers a bona fide international stage - you can watch your country battling a host of other countries - unlike in RL where the world stage consists of a hundred square miles of northern England and two states of Australia.

I've seen the Americans play. They're improvers. What they're up against, of course, is the lack of tradition and bloodlines. In fact, their soccer team's not half bad either. All we need is a decent US cricket team.

	29-05-2002 13:13									#240
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quote: Well I would certainly like to see a match between the two

I agree, but it worries me how seriously it would be taken. I mean neither team will want to risk key injuries as the proposed date for this is Feb/March time - slap bang in the middle of our season where the European competition reaches the knock out stage and just before the Super-12 campaign starts. The fixture would risk being a farce of second 15s?

Maybe if we can ever get our seasons more re-structured and co-ordinated, and crucially if we can play less games up here, we might get this sorted. Being a winter sport we will always have trouble between north and south in trying such things.

I feel very similar to you - we need more games between north and south because at the moment, whilst Premiership and Super 12 are high class tounraments, they are subtly different. the more we play the more common our playing styles will become and the more consistent refereeing will be across the board?

quote: It must be tough to crash back to reality every couple of years like that.

Otherwise referred to as the heart breaking reality of following England. So near - and yet so far. We are used to it.

quote: Actually I would rank England as second most likely to win the WC (behind the All Blacks of course!) - hows that for generous?!

It's very generous

Sadly I cannot agree. Being in Aus I see it being between NZ and the Wallabies. Then England, France and South Africa in that order of seeding.

It's just too big an ask for England to go to Aus and win it I fear.

Mind you the day is coming when England will put one over on Aus in their own back yard - I hope I am there (and that Finbar is too of course)

By the way in the real seeding I hear Wales are above England - wtf?? They have beaten us once, flukily, in the last eight years or so!