22-04-2002 14:41									#61
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quote: Why does Hollywood now eulogise the Vietnam fiasco?

May be because the Hollywood is just a bunch of lairs?

	22-04-2002 14:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Translation: "Evil Americans! Why don't they understand that people love to live in the free, peace loving environments that are supported in Communist rule?

Evil Americans! Why don't they understand that people have right to choose their fate without US interventions.

quote: Just look at how the Russians support he glorious Soviet Union, and you'll see how truly great it is to live in a Communist wonderland!"

I wouldn't call it wonderland, but it was not even a close as horrible as your movies portray it.

	22-04-2002 14:55									#63
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Hollywood rewrite history for their own conveniance : Money.
And Americans wanna buy stuff who make them fell stronger !

	22-04-2002 14:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Evil Americans! Why don't they understand that people have right to choose their fate without US interventions.

Serious ?

When they don't interfer they are isoliasionist, when they do they are imperialist.

	22-04-2002 15:11									#65
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Why do foerigners take Hollywood seriously? We don't.

In case the concept has escaped all of you. It it is fantasy and entertainment. Asking this question is about as good as asking why they made Han Solo a smuggler. Cause they thought it added background. It wouldn't do to make the supposedly tough guys a vet of WWII or Korea since that would push their ages beyond what they needed. I mean really guys. It's Hollywood.

	22-04-2002 15:17									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why do foerigners take Hollywood seriously? We don't. In case the concept has escaped all of you. It it is fantasy and entertainment. Asking this question is about as good as asking why they made Han Solo a smuggler. Cause they thought it added background. It wouldn't do to make the supposedly tough guys a vet of WWII or Korea since that would push their ages beyond what they needed. I mean really guys. It's Hollywood.

Finally a good answer.

But I think you doth protest too much

	22-04-2002 15:22									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Finally a good answer. But I think you doth protest too much

That happens when you spend too much time here.

	22-04-2002 17:34									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why do foerigners take Hollywood seriously? We don't.

You maybe, but your youngest generation not sure. If they don't have a potent hisorical education after, their only reference will be those film.

And maybe lot of 'adult' people are will be more sensitive to the false view of those movies. Have you heard about propaganda ?

	22-04-2002 21:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider The main reason it is being brought back is because it makes good sense, propaganda wise. The Vietnam War is the war that most similarly resembles the current "war on terror", with the "heroic" united states military facing a technologically-inferior, but determined, enemy.

Yeah, right.

It's not like 5 months of sitting on your ass in the sand and 100 hours of rock and roll in the KTO makes for a badass character background.

As for the latest Vietnam movie, We were soldiers, Ia Drang was an epic modern battle, the first large scale test of using airmobile forces in combat, and the book by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway is an exceptional account of the battle and what led to it, with input from both sides via a large number of interviews with participants. I haven't seen the movie to see if / how much they've butchered the book, but the book is an excellent read.

	22-04-2002 21:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why do foerigners take Hollywood seriously? We don't. In case the concept has escaped all of you. It it is fantasy and entertainment. Asking this question is about as good as asking why they made Han Solo a smuggler. Cause they thought it added background. It wouldn't do to make the supposedly tough guys a vet of WWII or Korea since that would push their ages beyond what they needed. I mean really guys. It's Hollywood.

But AH still has an interesting question about why did Hollywood movies change in their depiction of Vietnam.

Movies have gone from depicting vets as psychopaths to depicting them as heros.

When did this change take place? Was there a watershed movie that marked the changing depiction of the Vietnam War? Did Hollywood lead the change or did it simply follow changing opinions in the States?

	22-04-2002 21:14									#71
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According to the review from Salon, they butchered the book.

	22-04-2002 23:36									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So democracy is only for those who vote the way the Americans want? It doesn't matter what you think would have been better for them. What nmatters is the right of people to determine their own destiny. In this they were thwarted by the United States and the dictatorship[ of South Vietnam.

That's absolutely correct. I don't care about democracy for other people. There, I said it. I would prefer it if liberal democracies were the norm, but sadly we have to accept the realities of the world. In some cases people are better off not being able to vote, especially when illiteracy and regionalism are rampant, and ignorance of the world is the norm.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I am not a pacifist, I am a revolutionist. I am opposed to imperialist war, not wars of revolution or national liberation. We were the bad guys in Vietnam, the North and the NLF were the good guys. The North was right to invade the South, because it was the legitimate government of Vietnam. The only reason it didn't rule the whole of the country after Dien Bien Phu was because the US stepped in and decided that it knew better than the Vietnamese.

The bad guys are the ones who start wars. Although I am aware of how firm your beliefs are, I doubt you would be such a fervent revolutionist if you knew the horrific costs of these so-called wars of national liberation.

The North was wrong to invade the South, because of the 1973 peace talks. I would prefer a bloodless violation of peace talks, such as in 1956, than a costly and imperializing invasion, such as the 1975 takeover. Keep in mind that after 1975 most government positions in the south were taken by Northerners, and there was widespread resentment at the Communist treatment of the southerners. I would hardly call post-1975 Vietnam a legitimate government.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, maybe if our government stopped deciding for other people what would be best, people wouldn't be flying planes into our buildings.

Post Cold-War, I agree. During the Cold War however, we had to combat the aggresive expansion of Soviet and the competing Chinese Communism. Besides, we were right. The People of South Vietnam were better fed and living more comfortable lives (mostly in the cities which were safer from Communist attacks) than the people in the North. Compare the living conditions of someone in Hanoi to someone in Saigon, and you'll see what I mean. Both were repressive, but at least Saigon was a fun place to be.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, the Vietnamese weren't a lot better, but then they inherited a country destroyed by the United States, and had a lot of pay back to do for the 18 years of corrupt, repressive rule of the Southern dictatorship. I may not like the way they handled it, but maybe if the US hadn't renegged on their treaty obligations to Vietnam, and paid them the ten billion, they could have done a lot better.

The amount was three billion dollars, and it was never formallized. It was simply put on the table. I don't understand the "pay back," especially since many of the people persecuted by the victorious Communists were school teachers and other professionals. Even people who wanted to peacefully reform South Vietnam were persecuted. As far as destroyed by the United States, that was almost two decades ago, and the average Saigon resident isn't much better off now than under the repressive rule of the Southern dictatorship. By the way, Che, I haven't heard any mention from you of the repressive rule of the Northern dictatorship. Were they just a bunch of peachy nice guys trying to be neighborly when they poured their divisions into the South?

	23-04-2002 02:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse It was reported by an American journalist.

Actually it was in Micheal Herr's book "Dispatches", probably among other places, and I believe it was:

"In order to save Bein Tre we had to destroy it."

	23-04-2002 02:46									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Post Cold-War, I agree. During the Cold War however, we had to combat the aggresive expansion of Soviet and the competing Chinese Communism. Besides, we were right. The People of South Vietnam were better fed and living more comfortable lives (mostly in the cities which were safer from Communist attacks) than the people in the North. Compare the living conditions of someone in Hanoi to someone in Saigon, and you'll see what I mean. Both were repressive, but at least Saigon was a fun place to be.

That's one hell of an arguement? As long as they were more comfortable and having fun, eh? Couldn't the same be said for slavery of the 1700's and slavery of the 1800's? Certainly slaves of the 1800's were living more comfortable lives that those of the 1700's, so what's all the fuss?

	23-04-2002 03:59									#75
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Hey, if they aren't going to be politically free either way, they might as well have economic freedom.

And the same can't really be said about slavery. Slavery kept people from being able to leave. As long as you had money, you could leave South Vietnam. The same can't really be said of the North.

	23-04-2002 05:50									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As for the latest Vietnam movie, We were soldiers, Ia Drang was an epic modern battle, the first large scale test of using airmobile forces in combat, and the book by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway is an exceptional account of the battle and what led to it, with input from both sides via a large number of interviews with participants. I haven't seen the movie to see if / how much they've butchered the book, but the book is an excellent read.

I have not read the book, but saw the movie. CNN had Galloway and the real Col. on their show just before the movie was release and both said the movie was very very close to the book.

	23-04-2002 06:08									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And Joeseph1944's comment is an excellent example of the fifth columnist belief that we were sabotaged in our war effort, rather than: we were worn down by an enemy who would never quit, got tired of fighting for a government that could not and would not defend itself, got tired of fighting a war the majority of our population was against, got tired of fighting a war that ended the post-war boom, were scared that the growing unrest and mutinies in the US service personal in Vietnam would pose a serious problem. In the end, Nixon negotiated the same agreement that Johnson had on the table in '68 (the same one that Nixon sabotaged in order to ensure his election). So what were those extra five years of war for, other than to kill another 30,000 Americans and million+ Vietnamese.

McGovern did his own sabotaged when he said he would surrender to the North and just walk away. If Johnson or Nixon gave the word the US Military would have taken N. Vietnam any time. Our goal was not to conquer the North just make them leave the South along. You know you can only read about Vietnam, but I live it each and every day, not in country but here and at work. Since I worked for the US Navy I saw and talked to lots of people who did served in Nam. If you ever want to really know about something talk to the people who were there, and since I did talk to a sailor (March, 1965 a few days before my discharge) who was on the Turner Joy, I know what happen.

	23-04-2002 06:26									#78
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Accurate war movies are few and far between. The realities of war are not actually very entertaining, quite the opposite.

	23-04-2002 06:45									#79
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Oh stick your sanctimonious sermonizing in...your west island.

	23-04-2002 07:07									#80
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West Island?

	23-04-2002 07:11									#81
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Don't you know? North Island, South Island and West Island! hee hee!

Last edited by TCO on 23-04-2002 at 07:55

	23-04-2002 07:17									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse West Island?

That's where I live, GP...

	23-04-2002 07:37									#83
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quote: Originally posted by GP Don't you know? Norht Island, South Island and West Island! hee hee!

ROFLOL

	23-04-2002 10:22									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X In some cases people are better off not being able to vote, especially when illiteracy and regionalism are rampant, and ignorance of the world is the norm.

Could that be the United States of America? Could it?

	23-04-2002 11:04									#85
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quote: What nmatters is the right of people to determine their own destiny.

This type of response is spoken by many people around the world, from all different walks of life.

I am not singling you out, Che, but I will use this quote to ask one question.

If the rights for people to make up their own minds is abused, then is it not right for people in a better position , to offer help? I am not saying the Vietnam war or any war for that matter, is right or wrong... I don't usually give my own personal views on these things. There is not enough time for me to debate them consistently , on the internet

But I like to ask questions of people to learn more and for the "read".

And in regards to the question I asked... a followup would be.... in reference to Vietnam and in the present tense.... what about the Montagnards?

	23-04-2002 11:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX but truth be told, they ARE war heroes. it doesn't matter if we didnt attain total victory, it doesnt matter if we shouldn't have been there, what matters is that these men put their life on the line because their country needed them (i was going to say "to defend our country", but that doesn't fit right).

The people who served there deserve to be eulogized by Hollywood, even if the war itself doesn't.

	23-04-2002 11:23									#87
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quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 what about the Montagnards?

Hill tribes cover all the countries of mainland South East Asia and Southern China. They are nomadic or were until very recently and don't really matter in the politics of any of the countries - except in national security and narcotic terms. Their numbers are too small for them to be of much significance politically or economically in any of the countries. It was wrong of the United States to draw them into the IndoChina wars. They've been paying for it ever since.

	23-04-2002 11:31									#88
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If , as you say, they should have no real influence in where they are living presently... then should they not at least be afforded the right to peacably exit the country if they so choose, or to at least live in their home country while not being persecuted, executed blah blah ?

	23-04-2002 11:36									#89
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And I only used them in a small reference to Vietnam. The larger question , about any place on Earth , still exists.

If people are not given the right to choose for themselves, and instead are caused great suffering and hardship, is it not right for someone in a better position to help?

The question remains.

	23-04-2002 11:45									#90
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quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 If , as you say, they should have no real influence in where they are living presently... then should they not at least be afforded the right to peacably exit the country if they so choose, or to at least live in their home country while not being persecuted, executed blah blah ?

Actually they do move around a lot and over long distances. Many of them only migrated out of Southern China in the last 50 years, even as far as Northern Thailand, which may surprise many of you. The borders in that part of the world are very porous - if you want to move out of a country you can easily do so. The main problem regional governments have now is getting them to stop in one spot or at least one country so they can get papers, id cards and so forth.

Actually I once met, by chance in a hilltribe village I was staying at, the man reputed to be the CIA's most effective agent in South East Asia during the IndoChina wars. He was/is a Baptist Pastor There he was, still handing out the bibles Of course in times past he was handing out guns and bibles Looked a bit like Billy Graham - same flock and style - very charismatic guy.