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JamesJKirk
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Dixon, CA USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:19
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I like the idea of a size 0 city, if it were unable to get slaves, to get access to resources. This would be nice, if not necessary, once it's possible to have strategic resources like Civ3 (I'm being optimistic  )
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3. Higher garrison requirements for slave cities.
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AFAIK this is already true, I recall one game I played long ago w/ an old version of Med Mod, and I had to let my garrison out of my capital to attack a barbarian or something, and the next turn, a slave revolt captures the city. True, the slaves used Triremes against this landlocked city, but it was still unexpected and kinda nice. But I agree that this should be more common, and I think that slaves should try to revolt even if there is a sufficient garrison from time to time.
One thing I liked in Alpha Centauri that woefully wasn't in Civ3 was that if you were at war with a civ and it was losing, and there was no way it would make it, it would offer to ally with you and pledge allegience to you. You could make outrageous demands of them, and they'd just do as you wished it was great, like having my own personal Vichy regime. Is there any way that this could be done? It would also give impetus to the human to not completely conquer everyone.
Along with this, in my head at least, is the ability to send units to an underdeveloped civ. I also always try to do this, since I really wouldn't care to get myself involved completely in a war on the other side of the world, but it'd be nice to have a proxy war through a small civ and help it conquer another one, or even fend off an aggressor. This would add a much more deep and fun AND even realistic level to play if it was possible. Sending techs just isn't sufficient. I know this was mentioned earlier, but I think it's a great idea.
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centrifuge
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One thing that I liked from Civ2 and have missed ever since, is Civil Wars. When you took over a large empire's capitol there was a chance that the empire would split in two and become two seperate civs. Just something to add to the wishlist...
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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:19
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Heres one - I'm playing cradle and have come to realize that the AI still can not launch effective amphibious assults. I'm not looking for the marines to hit the beach in a city or anything - its just that I've come to "assume" that any city deep in my empire is safe, even those on sea coasts. This is a mistake the Hittites made - once.
Could slic be written that would have an enemy build an army (6-12 units) with the express purpose of launching an attack on a specific city? The code would probably work outside the normal "evaluations" that CTP2 relys on. No wandering around or looking at cities - this is a bold attempt to take a coastal city (as a stepping stone for later agressions).
Esentually, the code would have to...
1) Pick an enemy port city.
2) Build up an army of 6-12 units
3) Build up transportation to ship them there
4) Sail to the city, land nearby, and attack IMMEDIATLY.
5) Once this is done, the computer would slip back into its normal mode of generating more armies from that city and attempting to spread.
Mid-game notes on Cradle - I'm enjoying the experiance emensly. Never had naval battles until Cradle came along - now the Macidonians and I are having a constant battle to hold a mediteranian-style inland sea. Wonderful! I was bringing some raiding horsemen back on a longship and the Macs sallied out and sunk me. Serves me right for not running with escorts!
Bluevoss-
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child of Thor
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Bluevoss,
Yes we should be encouraged to care more about the happiness levels of our people, I like this increase in the flow of populations depending on how attractive individual cities are to live in(I guess through building Improvements that increase happiness).And also the opposite could apply , a foul polluted city full of mine improvements,like the north of England used to be  , and little in the way of public facilities would lose people over time? In another thread it became apparent that we all squeeze the life out of citizens! This should have additional consequences, not just through the world sliders where you can chuck more food at them to keep them sweet. Force the player to care a bit more. Would the AI need to do the same?(could it do the same?). Maybe the more advanced your civ becomes the more pronounced this effect should become? So in the early stage of a civ it’s easier to keep people happy with less, but as they advance and become more educated, they are harder to please and the human drift to the better cities becomes more apparent? This should never be too great a number or it could allow the top civ to really run away. Just enough to make it worth while?
BigMC,
Slaves as Trade Goods should be in the game IMHO. Would they just appear randomly over the world, maybe representing small groups of ‘un-civallised’ peoples? (Until Emancipation Act?). And how would they relate to slaves taken by other means(if they have to at all?). Would/Could they have a bonus to production value(as well as their gold value)?
Evacuation due to war could be done , say if a city is attacked(or undersiege?), then it would lose some population to the next nearest city(in its civ). I think something like this happens in Craddle when you ‘Blood bath’ a city, some of the pop escapes. This could have a ripple effect where by a civ under pressure and losing multiple cities, finds it remaining cities flooded by refugees. This extra pop would boost production but I guess it would suffer increased unhappiness, which could be fatal? Maybe this would be too much of an advantage to the conquering civ?
Aqtaca,
I’m pretty sure that in the mods earthquakes only happen near mountain ranges, and as far as Hurricanes go IMHO they should happen more often in the Polar regions(and centre of large land masses), I wouldn’t want to swap places with an Emperor Penguin for anything
Check out the link for ‘Civ3 mod for CTP2’, it’s got good stuff on Colonies and units to exploit strategic resources. I hope this can be done as it would be soooo cool!
Oh yeah I’m half welsh(!) and no I’m not biter , just ruffles my feathers when England thrash us at the rugby(again!). I guess you could say it gives a good perspective on inter-racial conflicts 
JamesJkirk,
I’m not sure if the garrison requirement in the mods does take slaves into consideration or not? Still a nice pop-up message about the slaves being restless in the city X, BEFORE they revolt would be nice?
And sending units to another civ would be great. How to do it though? If you use the diplomacy screen then once the offer has been sent do the units just disappear from you city and appear in the receiving civs? Could this be done? Or maybe you have to move the units to the civ you want and when they get to that civs border they change to units in that civ? Maybe a combination of the diplomacy screen and actual movement?(Hard/impossible I think) The reason I like having to actually deliver the units is that they could be ambushed on route and maybe combined with Wes’s idea’s on unit capture that could work nicely? If your INT sources(spies,diplomats) could get wind of a deal between other nations then they could possibly intercept?(getting way too ambitious here I think )
Centrifuge,
Check out the links to AI Superpowers, I think one of them deals a bit with civil war or at least states splitting in two, and maybe another thread somewhere….
On amphibious assaults,
Has anyone else played Dale’s WAW mod? I’ve played half a dozen games and it is the only mod so far that I see consistently using Troop transports to unload lots of troops to attack enemy cities. It’s forced me to ensure I have subs and destroyers on patrol as soon as I can!! Anyone else noticed this?
Good idea's everyone
Last edited by child of Thor on 03-05-2002 at 02:08
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centrifuge
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quote:
Originally posted by child of Thor
Centrifuge,
Check out the links to AI Superpowers, I think one of them deals a bit with civil war or at least states splitting in two, and maybe another thread somewhere…. |
Thanks, I haven't done a big search, but the one thread that I did find had a script by IW that will merge 2 smaller civs into a one large civ. This is the opposite of what I was referring, but should work if merging works (does it? I didn't spend enough time reading)
quote:
Originally posted by child of Thor
On amphibious assaults,
Has anyone else played Dale’s WAW mod? I’ve played half a dozen games and it is the only mod so far that I see consistently using Troop transports to unload lots of troops to attack enemy cities. It’s forced me to ensure I have subs and destroyers on patrol as soon as I can!! Anyone else noticed this?
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I've played Dale's WAW, the AI is constantly using transports. The AI in that Mod is very good except when it come to defense of cities.
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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:19
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Dale,
How transferable will the new AI be? Could it be incorprorated into Cradle? I'm really an ancient-fetisher, and really like the tech and stuff in that mod. But I've love to see the AI really beef up on us, too. Its a little strange to be worried (on an unprotected coast) that I'm going to get all my nets pulled down by those pesky Macidonians. Heck, they should pile in like the Sea People.
Right now, I think the trick in playing CTP2 (and most Civ games) is that you have to secure any land routes into your empire. Coast lines are usually safe. How often did coastal defense ever help me in Civ2 - hardly ever.
Hopefully your mod will change that.
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child of Thor
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quote:
Originally posted by Aqtaca
Can we introduce nation? I know i'm boring with it, but it would be so cool to have it. |
I'm not sure i understand what you mean exactly? I thought by choosing 'Celts/Roman/Assyrian/Indian' etc you were choosing your Nation to play as? Or do you mean a combining of two(or more) 'old' Empires to form a new nation?
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Peter Triggs
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Gone Fishin, Canada
Jan 2000
time: 05:19
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quote:
Any news on the latest Diplocode from Peter?
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I guess it's time for an update.
Actually, I got sidetracked awhile ago. I was trying to sort out FrenzyAI, but gave up in the end.
Subsequently, I got an idea for putting in quite a big change in how the AI bases it's decisions. As near as I can tell, in all these games (Civ1 to 3, CTP1 and 2, SMAC, RON) the kernel of the AI's decision making rests in the civ leader's personality profile. I think it was Ian Davis who wrote: "... the designer has control over enough parameters of the [system] to create exquistitely balanced AI play or truely psychotic behaviour." The problem here is that if you make the AI's globally more aggressive it's easy to end up with "truely psychotic behaviour". Moreover, I believe that this can screw up the way the AI tasks it's units: if everybody's at war with everybody else, it's possible for nobody to do a lot of fighting because everybody's busy defending themselves.
I wanted to introduce a geographic component into the game so that I could localize a civ's aggressiveness: load different diplomatic states depending on how close the foreign civ is. I just finished this the other day: each player now maintains a "Geographic Threat Level" towards every other player. The Raw Geographic Threat between player[0] and player[1] is just the distance between their two closest cities and then this is sorted to produce a ranked value. I think I've got a much better grasp on what the data in diplomacy.txt is doing than I had a couple of months ago and I've now got to work out what specific diplomatic states I want to assign to the AI civs and the conditions under which I want them to change.
BTW, CoT, your list of diplomatic options is 'potentially incomplete'.  I always thought that we were pretty well limited to the proposals you listed above until a few weeks ago. In DiplomacyProposal.txt, the 'type' variable is described as
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String name of a valid proposal type. These names are primarily used for debugging as well as SLIC scripting though they must be registered in the game to work correctly.
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I thought it just was a string and couldn't find where to 'register' it. But it's not just a string: it's the name of a SLIC object. This means we can add new ones. In fact, you can find some Titles in Dip2_str.txt that were never implemented:
quote:
PROPOSALS:
OFFER_WITHDRAW_TROOPS_FROM_ALLIE_0 "We vow to remove our forces from your ally's nation. The citizens of {player[2].country_name} will be troubled by us no more."
REQUEST_WITHDRAW_TROOPS_FROM_ALLIE_0 "We would be grateful if you withdrew your forces from {player[2].country_name} nation. They are our allies and we do not want to see them imperiled."
OFFER_INVADE_0 "We offer to invade {player[2].country_name} with all speed."
DETAILS_REQUEST_INVADE_0 "We solemnly request that you invade {player[2].country_name} and destroy their nation."
OFFER_BREAK_AGREEMENT_1 "We will break our agreements with {player[2].country_name} as a gesture of friendship towards you."
REQUEST_BREAK_AGREEMENT_0 "We urge you to end any existing agreements you have with {player[2].country_name}. Your regard with us would markedly increase."
OFFER_GIVE_ANNUAL_GOLD_0 "We offer you tribute in the amount of {gold[0].value} gold every turn, so that your nation may continue to prosper."
REQUEST_GIVE_ANNUAL_GOLD_0 "We ask for a tribute of {gold[0].value} gold every turn. Your regard with us will increase as a result."
TREATY_DECLARE_WAR_0 "We propose that together we join forces and declare war on the {player[2].civ_name_plural}."
THREATS
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_MASS_TROOPS "We are losing patience with you. If you do not comply with our demands, we will mass our forces at your borders."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_INVADE "If you fail to comply with our demands, we will invade your nation and slaughter your people."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_ATTACK_ARMY "If you don't agree, we will attack your armies!"
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_PIRATE "If our demands are not met, we will order our ships to pirate your trade routes!"
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_SPECIAL_ATTACK_CITY "If you do not agree to our requests, we will ravage the city of {city[0].name} with unconvential warfare."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_PILLAGE "If you do not comply, we will mercilessly pillage your land."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_JOIN_MILITARY_ALLY "If you do not agree, we will form an alliance with {player[2].civ_name_plural}."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_SELL_TECHNOLOGY "If you still refuse us, we will sell technology to {player[2].civ_name_plural}."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_GIVE_AID "If you continue to disagree with us, we will give aid to {player[2].civ_name_plural}."
DIP_DETAILS_THREAT_END_AGREEMENT "If you do not agree, we will cancel all agreements, pacts and treaties we have with you."
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I especially like the OFFER/REQUEST_GIVE_ANNUAL_GOLD, which should be fairly straightforward to implement with a fixed time limit. I don't know about the others.
In the above quote, "{player[2].country_name}" corresponds to the Arg1 value "ThirdParty" in DiplomacyProposal.txt. Other interesting values for this argument are OwnArmy, HisArmy, OwnGood, and HisGood, but I haven't been able to get them to work. The latter two would be useful in a stategic resources system.
Finally, it looks like that when I get this finished it'll come out initially as a free standing mod: From Cradle To Grave. After giving up on Frenzy, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out exactly what all that data in Goals.txt and the corresponding references in the various strategies were doing. As a result, I've been re-organizing things and playing with some new goals. For example, the goals part of my STRATEGY_SEIGE now looks like:
quote:
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }//check FM
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK_CITY_DEF Priority 710000 MaxEval 0 MaxExec 10 }//redefine FM here
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK_CITY_OFF Priority 610000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 15 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK_CITY_HAR Priority 605000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 15 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK_UNIT_DEF Priority 720000 MaxEval 0 MaxExec 10 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK_UNIT_OFF Priority 600000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 15 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK_UNIT_HAR Priority 595000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 15 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_BOMBARD_CITY Priority 597000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 7 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_BOMBARD_UNIT Priority 592000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 7 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_REINFORCE Priority 500000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 10 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_INVADE Priority 510000 MaxEval 0 MaxExec 10 }
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The scheme for those top goals is GOAL_ < order > _ < target > _ < force_matching >. But it's all very experimental.
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centrifuge
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I can't wait to see this implemented, the diplomacy possibilities are amazing.
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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:19
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You sorta reminded me of one of my favoite thoughts for a game like this.
Assume there are 9-12 end-game rulesets. Each of them give the game new units, victory conditions, etc, etc. At or near the actual modern timeline (i.e. the changeover from "then" to "next"), the game picks one or two rulesets to load in.
For example, one might be a world where space travel is practical. Here, you have a number of "space" units for your orbital struggle.
Or there could be the "moon" game, where suddenly the moon opens up as "a new front". The moon might be an amazing treasure-trove of resoures, or simply a ball of rock, hardly worth more than a settlement or two.
Or a world where nuclear reactions become so commonplace that any city that riots causes its own radical fringe blow up a bomb.
Aliens land, realising a horde of new units. War of the Worlds! They are essentually a race (a hostile one) and can be approched and embassied, just like any other race.
The sun cools - the earth begins to freeze. The seas become flat deserts of ice. Farms fail. Can a technology exist to restart the sun or just to survive the endless night?
A world where oil fails and all technology crashes back to iron age, and stays there. Think of "Mad max".
The Rapture happens. In a moment, cities lose populations based on their "happyness". Those left (on earth) must fight it out for a number of turns before the final judgement passes.
A meteor hits. Boom. Floods, new coast line, the whole works.
The next ice age.
========
I'm back - So, assume that these rulesets could be like mods. Anyone could easliy put them together. You could place them in a folder tree where the game would access them, picking one (or more, your choice) of rule sets for the outcome of the game. What if you could get to the moon, and then the earth cooled? Or the technology of oil falltered, dropping us down the tech tree, except that nukes were still available.
I guess I think about that since my early days of Sim City, where people laid out a city in 1900 with a thought towards automobiles. I think the same is true in all these games - players keep track of where the game is supposed to go. Too bad, since it takes away the fun of the journey.
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01-05-2002 22:24
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