24-04-2002 08:34									#31
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quote: Rich? How is $133,000 (US Congress) make them rich bastards?

Are you insane?! Imran, like practically all libertarians, you are completely removed from the real world. You think the world is some perfect thing where everyone has oppurtunities and that those who are not so successful in life are at fault while the rich and wealthy should be our masters.

133,000 to the common man is an unbelievable amount of money. 133,000 is not much... ha! tell that to people I know...


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	24-04-2002 08:37									#32
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quote: 133,000 to the common man is an unbelievable amount of money. 133,000 is not much... ha! tell that to people I know...

Yes it isn't... especially with how much education they have.

Most of them graduate from law school. $133,000 ain't that much for a law school grad at all.

You need to learn the basic precepts of supply and demand, of course that is economics, and you wouldn't want to be educated in that .

	24-04-2002 08:41									#33
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Albert Speer, it sounds as if you want politicians to live in the ghetto... You can't force people to live like that if they have the money. And how would want to be in a job like that that is so demanding of work and is so important if the money was so paltry?

We'd get crooks and/or morons. Worse than we have now...

	24-04-2002 08:41									#34
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Imran:

So that validates them living better than the people they are supposed to represent? Wealthy lawyers only represent wealthy lawyers. Very few can comprehend how the average American lives.

quote: You need to learn the basic precepts of supply and demand, of course that is economics, and you wouldn't want to be educated in that

What does that mean?


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	24-04-2002 08:42									#35
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Mono:

quote: Albert Speer, it sounds as if you want politicians to live in the ghetto... You can't force people to live like that if they have the money. And how would want to be in a job like that that is so demanding of work and is so important if the money was so paltry?

I'm saying they should live like most Americans: lower middle class. They can not possibly represent us if they live as good as they do. They just couldnt relate to our problems.


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	24-04-2002 08:43									#36
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quote: What does that mean?

Basically, if you pay people $30,000 a year, who'd want the Congress job except power mongers and people who'd take bribes and kickbacks?

The job is a *****, and you need some money to get good people to go out for it.

	24-04-2002 08:44									#37
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The very concept of supply and demand is completely opposite to the American ideal of rewarding hard work.
Let's say you work 14 hours a day in a Bangladesh Factory, where many others are struggling to take your job : because of the law of supply and demand, you'll barely earn what you need to survive a bit longer. Let's say you work 6 hours a day as a US technician : as not many people are able to take your job, you get paid enough to live in comfort, and to insure it to the family (not saying that all technicians are lazy, I'm saying that a relatively lazy technician can work much, much better than a hardworking worker).

	24-04-2002 08:46									#38
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quote: The very concept of supply and demand is completely opposite to the American ideal of rewarding hard work.

The American ideal is based on capitalism. Anyone can succeed if they work hard... and that is true, even if they are payed ****, if they work hard, they'll make a good living.

	24-04-2002 08:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Well? I understand why we came up with the idea of paying office-holders because otherwise we'd only have wealthy people who didn't work in office, but some of these senators, etc. get paid way to much. If there are so many people in poverty in this country, why in God's name are we paying our leaders so much? I say they should reflect and live like the average American if they are to be effective leaders of a democratic nation, not wealthy elitists who are removed from the common man. Give them whatever's the average income of Americans. No more than 30,000 a year... thanks

That doesn't make any sense at all. Contary to popular belief, politicians do have a job. They have the important job of running this country. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a group of capable, college educated professionals running the government than a bunch of people who barely have a high school diploma. Remeber, many politicians could more than likely make more money in the private sector. They are giving up much of their time and sacrificing money to serve their people. Granted, there are corrupt politicians, but I believe that the majority takes their job seriously. Maybe I'm just an idealist . Besides, if you want to distribute some wealth, we should distribute the money of Pro Athletes and Entertainers. Does Alex Rodriguez really need to make $250 Million dollars for playing baseball? I mean come on, what is he really doing to deserve that kind of money? Politicians are far more important than athletes and movie stars, as are teachers, policemen, doctors, nurses, firemaen, etc.

	24-04-2002 08:52									#40
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nationalist:

your logic is wrong... baseball players do NOT represent the American people... politicians do...

	24-04-2002 08:53									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer nationalist: your logic is wrong... baseball players do NOT represent the American people... politicians do...

Which is a more important job: to represent the people and run the government, or to hit homeruns and catch line drives? Therefore, which job deserves more pay?

	24-04-2002 09:01									#42
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quote: Which is a more important job: to represent the people and run the government, or to hit homeruns and catch line drives? Therefore, which job deserves more pay?

Morally, an officeholder is more important but that's not an issue... the issue is that the politican represents americans... if people got a problem with baseball players getting paid so much then people should stop buying tickets (think of tickets to see a certain team as almost votes to chose the richest teams and the most paid players) and then these players will get paid less... but anyway... they dont rep the american people...


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	24-04-2002 09:03									#43
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I thought I remember reading somewhere that the U.S. president today, gets paid only about $45,000 a year??

Or am I wrong??

	24-04-2002 09:03									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer 133,000 to the common man is an unbelievable amount of money. 133,000 is not much... ha! tell that to people I know...

The comparison shouldn't be to the common man. The salary should reflect the skill required to be a politician and the demands of the jobs.

We all like to criticize politicians, but do you have what it takes to get elected. Do you have interpersonal skills required to convince people that they should elect you as their representative? Do you have the organization skills to run a successful campaign? Do you have the required communication skills?'

When you start looking at what it takes to become a politician, $133,000 doesn't seem like that much.

	24-04-2002 09:09									#45
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To try and follow your logic: Congressional Reps represent particular districts in their state. Should a man representing an area with an average wage of $65,000 have to make $30,000? After all, he represents only one particular group of people not the entire American public. Should a Senator make his state average as oppossed to the national average. After all, he only represents his state. How about Surpreme Court Justices? Technically they don't represent the people. How much should they make?

I think that you can represent people without making as much money as them. Afterall, if a poor man wants to run for Representative he has every right to do so. I think a person who has lived in an area his whole life can represent the people that he has lived with, regardless of his salary. Giving a Congressman $30,000 a year takes much of the incentive away, and only allows for either the very rich or very corrupt to become members of Congress. Right now the common man still has some hope to win. If you don't believe me and want to change things, run for Congrees yourself.

	24-04-2002 09:15									#46
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Back to my question . . . . .

	24-04-2002 09:17									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Back to my question . . . . .

No, the President makes something like $230,000/year

	24-04-2002 09:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist No, the President makes something like $230,000/year

$233,000 to run the free world? Sounds like his salary is set by someone like Speer

	24-04-2002 09:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse $233,000 to run the free world? Sounds like his salary is set by someone like Speer

Nope, I think its set be Congress Hey, at least you get interns...

	24-04-2002 09:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist No, the President makes something like $230,000/year

ok --- thanks

	24-04-2002 09:32									#51
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Remember, the elected people in Washingtong have to maintain a home in or near DC and a home in their home district. They also ave a lot of expensese politicking. Congress only make about five times the average wage in America. It's nowhere near as obscene as what CEOs make, which I last remember at 89 times the average wage (and that was a decade ago).

	24-04-2002 09:32									#52
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Only Speer could unite us in defence of politicians

	24-04-2002 09:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Remember, the elected people in Washingtong have to maintain a home in or near DC and a home in their home district. They also ave a lot of expensese politicking. Congress only make about five times the average wage in America. It's nowhere near as obscene as what CEOs make, which I last remember at 89 times the average wage (and that was a decade ago).

Che- what do you think about the obscene amounts that pro athletes and entertainers make? Some make more than CEOs.

	24-04-2002 10:00									#54
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Pro-atheletes and entertainers probably don't get paid as much as they should be paid under capitalism, given the demand for their services. They actually only get a paltry amount of the income they generate. Most goes to owners and producers and corporations. If someone's gonna get the money, I'd rather it be the people who do the work.

In a more egalitarian society, I'd like to hope that more emphasis would be paid to local smaller teams, like the minors. I'd also like to see a World Series that includes more than just the US and Canada.

	24-04-2002 10:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Pro-atheletes and entertainers probably don't get paid as much as they should be paid under capitalism, given the demand for their services. They actually only get a paltry amount of the income they generate. Most goes to owners and producers and corporations. If someone's gonna get the money, I'd rather it be the people who do the work.

I still think that they make too much money. A typical family of 4 can't afford to go to the ballpark anymore due to the inflated salaries of athletes. There is certainly much demand for their services, but the particular I think that the huge amounts of money that they make could go to more useful things. Perhaps setting caps so admissions to games are only around $10 per person or something. Tax owners greatly so they can't take advantage of exploiting their players. Use that money to support education or something. Just an idea.

quote: I'd also like to see a World Series that includes more than just the US and Canada.

Most of the best players from around the world to come and play in the U.S./ Canada. I would like to see Japan involved in the World Series.

	24-04-2002 10:19									#56
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I think they could probably open a franchise in the Dominican Republic and Cuba, as well as Japan. Baseball was exported to nearly all the Carribenan countries during the early part of the 1900s, when we occupied most of them for decades.

If you're advocating a major change to the way the game system works, then I agree with you. But it isn't the ball aplyers that are causing the prices to rise, it's the owners. It is after the owners raise prices that the players demand an increase in their saleries, since they are the one's generating the money.

And while an average family can't afford to go to the games, capitalism is not about equality. It's about profit. Prices will rise as high as the market will bear. That's fair under the rules of the game. That's not what frosts me so much as owners holding communities hostage and getting them to pay for new parks and give them concessions reciepts, etc. If I don't want to go to a ball game, I shouldn't be forced to pay for a new park.

	24-04-2002 10:24									#57
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Che,

Greedy players and owners are the reason why there will never be a professional franchise in the Carribean. No one there could afford tickets. At least in America we have Yuppies who can buy tickets to drink $10 beer and talk on the cell phone instead of watching the game. Owners and players are both at fault. Players demand high salaries, owners pay them by raising admission prices, players demand more money, owners pay them more, each time keeping a good percentage for themselves.

	24-04-2002 10:30									#58
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You've got the cycle backwards, but the effect is still the same. You need to look back to the '70s, when ball players weren't making that much money, and the owners were making money hand over fist. It was especially bad if you consider other sports besides baseball, because those sports have a tendency to wreck an athelete's body. Anyway, the players got tired of seeing all the money go to the owners, so they struck to get a bigger share of the pie. The owners passed the buck to the fans, and took an ever bigger chunk.

As long as people are willing to pay the price, the system is fair. It may price you out of the market, but hey, that's capitalism.

How about something radical? Municply owned teams, like Green Bay. Prices are low, the team will never leave, and it can pay it players comparably to the rest of the league. It'll never happen again, though, until Congress removes their monopolies.

	24-04-2002 10:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You've got the cycle backwards, but the effect is still the same. You need to look back to the '70s, when ball players weren't making that much money, and the owners were making money hand over fist. It was especially bad if you consider other sports besides baseball, because those sports have a tendency to wreck an athelete's body. Anyway, the players got tired of seeing all the money go to the owners, so they struck to get a bigger share of the pie. The owners passed the buck to the fans, and took an ever bigger chunk.

Either way, it still sucks. That may be why I enjoyed the movie Basketball so much.

quote: How about something radical? Municply owned teams, like Green Bay. Prices are low, the team will never leave, and it can pay it players comparably to the rest of the league. It'll never happen again, though, until Congress removes their monopolies.

I like that idea. It could help out my Pittsburg Pirates (even though they've actually been doing alright this season. I'm just waiting until they fall apart )

	24-04-2002 10:37									#60
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quote: Only Speer could unite us in defence of politicians

quote: It'll never happen again, though, until Congress removes their monopolies.

You mean anti-trust exemption? That is only for Baseball, and that is the only reason that no team has moved in MLB since the Washington Senators moved to Minnesota and became the Twins .

Congress can't really do anything about the other sports leagues, and they really can't be subject to anti-trust laws, since their behavior isn't a contract in restraint of trade.