29-04-2002 18:24									#31
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Jesus Christ's ressurection is meant as a symbolic story that has important application to people's actual lives.

	29-04-2002 18:29									#32
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MISTER Fun,

can you elaborate on that claim? I'm wondering how you reach your conclusions regarding what the authors of the Bible really "meant" when they wrote it.

	29-04-2002 18:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Monk MISTER Fun, can you elaborate on that claim? I'm wondering how you reach your conclusions regarding what the authors of the Bible really "meant" when they wrote it.

I do not know the truth that underlies the Bible -- no one does. Not even the Pope -- he knows as much about the Bible as the average person does, IMO.

All I can hope to do, is read as much as I can from the Bible this summer, and try to think about the different messages, and get as close as to what I think the truth is.


But here is my belief regarding Jesus Christ's death. His ascendant into Heaven did not mean that he went into a spiritual realm that is separate from earth.

Rather, it meant that all of his followers and the people who were part of his life received part of his spirit and soul after his death. To this day, those who make a serious, faithful effort in trying to follow his teachings, have the potential to receive a small part of his soul and spirit.

	29-04-2002 18:49									#34
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/743539.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1#BODY



Big bang?



"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

	29-04-2002 18:50									#35
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I think the authors wanted to portray the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as historical facts in the same way the death of Socrates and Alexander's conquest of Persia were concrete, historical facts. That's why contemporary people are included. This symbolic interpretation of yours is a relatively new theory, if I got my facts right.

	29-04-2002 18:52									#36
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It's SteFu, not SteBu.

	29-04-2002 18:53									#37
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It's not a new theory advanced by anyone --- it's my conclusion on what I believe is closer to the truth after a few years of periodic relfection, reading, and discussion.

I'm still at the point of life though, where I am in the midst of developing all of my beliefs. In fact, it's a journey that does not end.

	29-04-2002 19:00									#38
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It's not a new theory advanced by anyone

Well, I'm just talking about the difference between the literal and the symbolic interpretation of the Bible. Your symbolic interpretation would resemble that of most Christians today as well as Søren Kierkegaard and the Christian part of the existentialist wave in the fifties.

	29-04-2002 19:03									#39
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Of course it's "Stebu". Even if he prefers to be called "Tatu of Finland".

	29-04-2002 21:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij The Bible is either the word of God or it isn't. If you think it is you have to take it literally, if you think it isn't you just pick out the wisdom stuff (after all, Western civilization is, or should be, ingrained with it) and choose a religion (or no religion) of your choice... And with this bit of wisdom I pray you all goodnight...

I remember that when I was young some adults were trying to illustrate the addition operator by some examples:
1 apple + 2 apples = 3 apples.
Do you think those adults were so stupid that they didn't know also that 1+2=3?
Why is litteral reading exclusiv to general reading?
If (!!!) God exists, and if (!!!) he wrote the bible, why would he has been so unwise to exclude the general, symbolic reading of the bible?

If you read only litteraly (1st commandment: only apples may be added!), you will never be able to understand the general case (Holy $#!t, some explorer has found a new fruit: banana. How are we going to add it?).

Smart children don't need the apple support to understand the addition, some others, less gifted, need it.

	29-04-2002 23:05									#41
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MrFun, the Monk, I don't know how aware you are about this. The death of Jesus is portrayed as testifiable by historic persons. As main witness there seems to be the Roman Centurio (or whatever he was) who supervised the crucification. For the resurrection there is quite clearly no witness outside the Christian community. And I think it doesn't matter. Someone who doesn't believe in Christ doesn't need to know if the resurrection was a historical fact. If you believe - why should God not be able to rise from the dead?

quote: So you are saying the Bible is obsolete. Isn't about time that Jehovah did a second edition?

As I already said, you have to look at each part indiviually if it became obsolete. Same with Newton's physics. His theory of light became obsolete quite fast without making the rest obsolete.
Why should God take away the pleasure we have doing physics by revealing everything we can grasp now? So far about the first chapters of Genesis. For the more theological part, there is a second edition, called New Testament, and apart of some sociological statements of St. Paul, it didn't become really obsolete. Rather it was never really applied.

quote: If the Bible is not perfect what makes it special in comparison to any other relgious writings?

The Bible is far better than any other religious writing I know. And - especially the teaching of Jesus Christ is the best thing to an individual's psychical health I've heard of (I don't mean in its abuse). The only drawback is that you cannot build a state on it. And I doubt it will ever be possible to reconcile this.

	29-04-2002 23:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus MrFun, the Monk, I don't know how aware you are about this. The death of Jesus is portrayed as testifiable by historic persons. As main witness there seems to be the Roman Centurio (or whatever he was) who supervised the crucification. For the resurrection there is quite clearly no witness outside the Christian community. And I think it doesn't matter. Someone who doesn't believe in Christ doesn't need to know if the resurrection was a historical fact. If you believe - why should God not be able to rise from the dead?

Um, Adal --- I never had any doubt that Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross and then became a martyr.

What I doubt is his literal ressurection and asendant to heaven. But I do not believe in the heaven and hell realms.

	30-04-2002 08:13									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus MrFun, the Monk, I don't know how aware you are about this. The death of Jesus is portrayed as testifiable by historic persons. As main witness there seems to be the Roman Centurio (or whatever he was) who supervised the crucification.

Would you care to show where this can be seen outside the Bible? There is no such source. We only have John's gospel to support this. Even the other gospels don't have that specific claim. Of course if he was crucified there had to be Romans present but there is no record of it except in the Bible.

quote: For the resurrection there is quite clearly no witness outside the Christian community. And I think it doesn't matter. Someone who doesn't believe in Christ doesn't need to know if the resurrection was a historical fact. If you believe - why should God not be able to rise from the dead?

If he didn't actually die there was no resurrection. People have been known to apear quite dead without actually being so.

	30-04-2002 09:48									#44
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If the Bible is the literal word of God, then God is a liar. No two ways about it. It has been shown--overwhelmingly--by historians, anthropologists, archaelogists, etc. that many of the events described of the OT (The Flood, most of Genesis, etc.) did not happen, at least not as the Bible relates them.

For instance, the Flood--while it may have a factual basis in a great deluge of the Black Sea basin (several other cultures, like the Sumerians in the Epic of Gilgamesh, give very similar flood accounts), it is undeniable that no, the flood didn't destroy the whole world except 8 people on the Ark. Numerous civilizations existed happily right through the time of the flood and didn't seem to notice it (China, Egypt, India, etc.).

Beyond that, there is the massive anthropological evidence collected Genesis and creation is a bunch of hooey.

The Bible is interesting myth--but that's all it is. There is little to distinguish the OT in maturity or reason from the ancient myths of China, India, Greece, Egypt, etc.

Does any of this mean there is no God? Of course not, it is impossible to disprove God. But shows that what is contained in the Bible is merely just one of many attempts by man to do the impossible, and that is reduce and belittle God into a concept we can understand. This is a fictional God, utterly human in form and creation. He is at times petty and callous (Job), vengeful and mean, loving and child-like, and alarmingly prone to contradiction, fickleness and irrational behavior. Yup, that's a human alright...

	30-04-2002 09:53									#45
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quote: The Bible is far better than any other religious writing I know. And - especially the teaching of Jesus Christ is the best thing to an individual's psychical health I've heard of (I don't mean in its abuse).

Try reading Buddhism. Far superior than Christian doctrine in promoting psychic well-being and mental health. When you remove the guilt-inducing bogies of Heaven and Hell, you'd be amazed at how the mind can focus on what is real.

	30-04-2002 11:52									#46
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quote: Would you care to show where this can be seen outside the Bible?

The death of Jesus is portrayed in the bible as testifiable by historic persons.

That's what I wanted to say. Happy now? The oldest definite account on the person Jesus which is not Christian is afaik Josephus Flavus who lived about 100 years later. And I wouldn't wonder if the prosecutions of Christians by Nero were aimed to the Jews, and the Christians being regarded as a strange Jewish sect.

The other gospels didn't claim the Roman centurio as witness but they report his presence.

quote: If he didn't actually die there was no resurrection. People have been known to apear quite dead without actually being so.

Do you have a point here?

	30-04-2002 12:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus The death of Jesus is portrayed in the bible as testifiable by historic persons.

No true. Its in the Bible but it is not testified by anyone historic except in the Bible. There is no source outside the Bible.

quote: That's what I wanted to say. Happy now?

You are welcome to say what you want. It just isn't verifiable.

quote: The oldest definite account on the person Jesus which is not Christian is afaik Josephus Flavus who lived about 100 years later.

Not quite correct. He was born a few years after the crucifiction is believed to have occured and he was a witness to the razing of Jerusalem so it wasn't that long a time. He didn't say anything about the crucifiction. He reffered to "James the brother of Jesus" and thats it for direct references to Jesus. He had access to Roman records so he could be a good source. He said a things about christians but just the one sentence about Jesus.

quote: And I wouldn't wonder if the prosecutions of Christians by Nero were aimed to the Jews, and the Christians being regarded as a strange Jewish sect. The other gospels didn't claim the Roman centurio as witness but they report his presence.

As I said there had to Romans there. A centurian seems likely as they were the equivalent to a sargeant. Its not the same as an outside source. If the centurian had written it down and sent a letter that was found or referenced then there would be outside evidence.

The centurian was not an historic person in anycase. There is no record of him except that mention in John. Without outside corroboration there is no reason to assume the Bible is an accurate representation of history. It may be such but it cannot be confirmed.

quote: Do you have a point here?

Yes and I made it. I guess you missed it.

There is no outside evidence that Jesus died on the cross.

There is only one single oustide mention of him at all and its not comtemporary. So we don't know that he died on the cross. As I said I don't think he did as dead people generaly don't get up and walk. However comatose people can appear dead and get up and walk. There is no reason to think that a miracle was involved.

	30-04-2002 22:53									#48
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quote: No true. Its in the Bible but it is not testified by anyone historic except in the Bible. There is no source outside the Bible.

I didn't say anything about an outside source available to us. I said that the bible said that there are non-Christian people you can ask about the death of Jesus, but not about his resurrection.
Now for the third time.

quote: However comatose people can appear dead and get up and walk.

That was probably why the bible mentioned two women who didn't know how to take away the stone which was closing the tomb. And I'd doubt that Jesus after suffering a crucification and two days without food would be stronger than two women. I don't know how many other people at that time would dare to open a tomb of someone who is dead if he suddenly appears to be quite alive.

quote: Try reading Buddhism.

Is there such a thing as the Book of Buddhism? I never heard of any and to my knowledge Buddha wrote as much as Jesus, Laotse or Socrates, i. e. nothing. Is there any other good introductory reading?

	30-04-2002 23:06									#49
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re: Buddhism:

Try http://www.beliefnet.com/index.html

Excellent resource, with info on many faiths. Of course, any claim on anyone's part about a particular belief being better or worse is nothing more than opinion.

	01-05-2002 00:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Try reading Buddhism. Far superior than Christian doctrine in promoting psychic well-being and mental health. When you remove the guilt-inducing bogies of Heaven and Hell, you'd be amazed at how the mind can focus on what is real.

Nah, I don't need to mess with Buddhism.

I believe that Jesus Christ's "miracles" were results of chakra healing techniques for some of his more remarkable healings of some of the people he met.

	01-05-2002 01:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I believe that Jesus Christ's "miracles" were results of chakra healing techniques for some of his more remarkable healings of some of the people he met.

I just think they were made up by people writing decades after Jesus had died.

	01-05-2002 01:09									#52
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I don't think they made up these stories just out of whim or late-night imagination attacks.

They might have seen people who were indeed, healed by Jesus Christ. And if they had no knowledge of chakra techniques in this period of history, to many people, it would look like miracles.

	01-05-2002 01:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I don't think they made up these stories just out of whim or late-night imagination attacks.

I think they made them up to justify the belief Jesus was divine. Certainly the feeding of the 5000 (or however many) is such a case.

	01-05-2002 01:16									#54
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Some of it is based on pure myth, others are based on what people observed themselves, but did not understand HOW whatever Jesus Christ did, happened --- but they saw it happen.

	01-05-2002 01:17									#55
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quote: Is there such a thing as the Book of Buddhism? I never heard of any and to my knowledge Buddha wrote as much as Jesus, Laotse or Socrates, i. e. nothing. Is there any other good introductory reading?

There are books of Buddhist scripture. The Tipitaka and the Dhammapada are two that I remember off the top of my head (don't quote me on the spelling though). They are collections of the Buddha's sayings, put down by his followers at a later date. Kinda like the New Testament, in that sense.

	01-05-2002 02:17									#56
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Boris, Drake, thanks for the suggestions, I'll try them.

	01-05-2002 03:31									#57
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A naive question from a sceptic: On which language do those bible codes apply? The english bible , the vulgata or greek? Do the codes apply to both testaments? If yes, does it work in Hebrew for the OT and greek or aramean for the NT at the same time? Do they give answers in english?

	01-05-2002 03:36									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III On which language do those bible codes apply? The english bible , the vulgata or greek? Do the codes apply to both testaments? If yes, does it work in Hebrew for the OT and greek or aramean for the NT at the same time? Do they give answers in english?

To the best of my knowlege, the Bible Codes are a fraud.

	01-05-2002 03:36									#59
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I hope you're all 100% certain that what the Bible says isn't true, because if you're wrong, it'll really suck.

	01-05-2002 03:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Triped I hope you're all 100% certain that what the Bible says isn't true, because if you're wrong, it'll really suck.

I believe that it is true. I just prefer Biblical Criticism to Biblical Literalism when interpreting passages whenever possible.