17-05-2002 20:58									#61
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Oh...getting back on topic, I NEVER clean up pollution or worry about it. (unless I have a spare engineer goofing off. And usually I don't since there is lots better stuff for them to be doing. First and foremost, laying track to my enemy' citys. Second, builiding new cities.)

I figure pollution hits the AI worse than me. And I'm not a wimpy builder. I don't care if an individual city experiences hardship. It's a game of empire. If an individual city takes it in the shorts, too bad.

	17-05-2002 21:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq I fully agree. However, As a climatologist (at least I have a piece of paper claiming that ), I have to argue with you a bit. You are correct that sensationalized reports in the media are exagerations giving attention to 'worst case' scenarios. BUT, the data show that global warming is real, and at a minimum is exacerbated by mankind. It's impossible to fairly argue that people are the sole or even primary cause, but equally unrealistic to deny that human activity influences it strongly. Whatever the politically correct stance, the world is warming up - what is unknown is how long it will continue, how great the changes will be, and what the effects will ultimately be - and, of course, if it would be happening even without people fouling everything up. Because there is so much guesswork about the outcome, worst case scenarios pop up more than they should.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that GW (popular use of the term) has not been proved one way or the other.


However, the grant money is definitely out there for people who spin/tell the story the right way...

	17-05-2002 21:15									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits "Trashing Americans" -- oh I don't think so, I have found that you quaint colonials are so much better at that than we could ever be... SG[1]

Well, we do have some 5th Columnists runnign around...

	17-05-2002 21:16									#64
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quote: Originally posted by bellisaurius Wow, I didn't think that this would be such a hot button topic, or that a climatoligist would be in it ( I'm a chemical engineer, BTW). I'm happy to see mainstream (I'm assuming, but it seems reasonable) thought on the topic seems moderated in its conclusions. Except for a rare paper which doesn't seem tilted, I only get stuff from trade magazines (ACS, AIChE, AWWA, etc..) and Discover and its ilk. I wish I saw more stuff like that. I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time debating questions of GW's severity which always seem to come off as sounding like a denial of existing data, which I wouldn't do. Although I will say this, mankind is quite resiliant. I wouldn't go around screwing with things just to do it, but the inevitable has little scare for me as well. Neither best nor worst case scenarios ever seem to pan out.

Hey do you get C and E News. I really hate how PC and liberal they are in environmental coverage...good magazine otherwise. Good business coverages actually...

	17-05-2002 21:53									#65
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Well it was a civil discussion for a while. Seems to have passed that point now though.

One of the things I like best about Apolyton is the generally pleasant tone of the discussions. I don't think this is the place for invective or insult, so I'm bowing out of this thread before I say something offensive.

	17-05-2002 22:05									#66
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Oh, come on...

	18-05-2002 01:27									#67
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In this GP and we are in agreement

The Gits - climbing into the first bottle

	18-05-2002 01:56									#68
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I must be psychic. I smelled some blood and spam in the normally staid Civ2 Strat forum.

GP flexes his mighty shark tail...goes scurrying off to the RON forum...

	18-05-2002 02:09									#69
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quote: Originally posted by GP I must be psychic. I smelled some blood and spam in the normally staid Civ2 Strat forum. GP flexes his mighty shark tail...goes scurrying off to the RON forum...

We bow to your superior sixth sense - see - even colonials can get things right sometimes

Now in the second bottle

	18-05-2002 02:53									#70
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What is the RON forum?

(I agree that this GW discussion was somewhat more heated than the average on this forum, but:
1) This shows that the forum is alive, and I like it;
2) I don't remember having read insults, and that is fine;
3) The level of detail and background was impressive on both sides IMO, and there was some kind of link to the topic 'GW in civ2', so why not?)

	18-05-2002 04:30									#71
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* Concurrence *

the SGs blotto

	19-05-2002 01:48									#72
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RE: Straybow Is the Don of Skeptics

While I usually come to the Strat Forum to learn about actually playing the game I have relished this 'discussion'. Tough minded, cogent arguement is a thing of beauty. Thanks, Stray....

For what it's worth, this old monk recalls that at the time the "evil, mentally challenged, oil loving, earth-raper Bush" finished off the Kyoto Scam that it had been rejected previously by our Senate and ratified by only one country in the whole wide world, Bulgaria I think. Not the EU or anywhere was this turkey embraced, offically. Just because something is named a miracle cure doesn't mean it can actually deliver, that it's not snakeoil. May it rest in peace. And may all people of good will everywhere learn to be a little bit skeptical of the fellow who says. "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you"

Bloody Monk wondering why some folks resort to name calling when the facts are inconvenient.

	19-05-2002 01:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by GP ooooh, you're so much better, debeest. Good to know that you can suck up to somebody trashing Americans. **** em. Napalm their babies. We showed them in 1776 and 1812 what we think of em.

Um ... you forgot to put smiley faces with this, GP.

	19-05-2002 02:40									#74
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goes over better that way. smilies are for wimpy builders...

	19-05-2002 03:03									#75
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Um ... you forgot to put smiley faces with this, GP.

I took it for granted that the smiley faces were there.
Now, GP, if you say you mean what you wrote without smiley faces...I say

	19-05-2002 07:04									#76
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I can neither confirm nor deny the prescense of invisible smilies in my fla...er posts that is.

	19-05-2002 07:42									#77
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Just to show you how I think...and to bring this back on topic.

You know what I love? When one of the AI engineers wanders onto my land. He finds some pollution and starts to clean it up. I let him finish and than cap his little AI ass!!!

	19-05-2002 10:54									#78
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You've gotta be pretty close to your opponent for an Engr to wander in, and when they're wandering they usually look for somewhere to settle. I've never seen one do any improving or tidying up.

I don't know why you wouldn't clean up pollution if it falls on a tile in use. It kills half the production, and that's an offense to the empire. I'm dispeased if the serfs are not working at their best.

Last edited by Straybow on 19-05-2002 at 11:04

	19-05-2002 19:27									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow You've gotta be pretty close to your opponent for an Engr to wander in, and when they're wandering they usually look for somewhere to settle. I've never seen one do any improving or tidying up. I don't know why you wouldn't clean up pollution if it falls on a tile in use. It kills half the production, and that's an offense to the empire. I'm dispeased if the serfs are not working at their best.

It's well known that the AI will clean up pollution if it wanders onto one of your tiles that has it. He will do this in preference to settling. And I'm always near the AI. Always pushing the border over towards him. Lebensraum!!

	19-05-2002 21:21									#80
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In one of the earlier fortnight OCC games the biggest danger was an AI engineer coming in and helpfully irrigating my expensively forested river squares

SG[1]

	20-05-2002 08:18									#81
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That doesn't explain why you don't clean up pollution around your vital cities.

I tend to play on gigantic maps. I made a 105x95 map of Eurasia.

	20-05-2002 20:04									#82
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Global warming hurts the AI more than me.

Only a builder would worry about it. Warmongers don't let such stuff bother them. Heck, the game can be over before pollution even crops up...

	20-05-2002 20:16									#83
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Originally posted by GP:
ooooh, you're so much better, debeest. Good to know that you can suck up to somebody trashing Americans. **** em. Napalm their babies. We showed them in 1776 and 1812 what we think of em.

Just so it's clear, that was the line I thought was insulting.

I don't agree with much of Straybow's posts but I was enjoying the discussion. It was intelligent and interesting. I thought GP's remark to debeest was over the line. I took him as serious, and he hasn't said otherwise.

	21-05-2002 01:23									#84
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It was meant to be over the top. Probably I'm in the wrong for using that kind of language.

I am serious about "not liking to see Americans look sophisticated by sucking up to those who find us unsophisticated." Reminds me of my buddy's candy-ass friends from Ivy League schools who would wear a Canadian flag on their backpack, when traveling Europe. Being an American or (shiver) proud of it was so declasse.

Last edited by TCO on 21-05-2002 at 01:30

	21-05-2002 09:32									#85
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You have to go further over the top if you want to leave off the smilies. Napalm their babies, set Big Ben to Eastern Time, and force them to drop the "u" when they spell "humour," dammit! See? No smilies necessary.

	21-05-2002 14:03									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow You have to go further over the top if you want to leave off the smilies. Napalm their babies, set Big Ben to Eastern Time, and force them to drop the "u" when they spell "humour," dammit! See? No smilies necessary.

In the absence of smilies -- I shall have no choice but to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against our colonial brethren - Tony Blair

	21-05-2002 16:56									#87
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GP,
Perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't see debeest's post as sucking up. The one you quoted said:

quote: Originally posted by debeest SG1: Be nice, now. Many of us Amurricans are smarter than the oil man appointed by the Supreme Court justices appointed by his daddy. Smart enough to wonder how it is that "politically correct" is only used to refer to left-wingers, when the dominant politics of this country and most governments is thoroughly right-wing. And smart enough to see that that's exactly why the right wing got to define the term. Then again, maybe I only know about Wales because that's where my grandaddy was born....

I can see where you'd disagree with him, but not how he's sucking up to the Gits. My impression was that you were taking a shot at him for expressing a liberal opinion, and combining it with a shot at the SGs. Maybe I overreacted but it seemed out of order for the reasonable discussion we'd been having.

I'd be pleased to put it behind us.

	21-05-2002 17:03									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits In the absence of smilies -- I shall have no choice but to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against our colonial brethren - Tony Blair

SG,
You shouldn't use smilies, you should just include a bottle count. We'd know not to take you seriously if there were more than two.

	21-05-2002 17:45									#89
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campo, you have to look to SG's earlier post, that debeest is responding to...

	21-05-2002 18:09									#90
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quote: Originally posted by GP ...Reminds me of my buddy's candy-ass friends from Ivy League schools who would wear a Canadian flag on their backpack, when traveling Europe.

Trying to travel incognito!

Nobody will be able to tell - with the J.Crew top tucked into the khaki shorts (with belt), the sneakers, the wristwatch, the posture, etc etc etc... Kijk mama, canadezen!

Anyway, enough of the personal jabs. This discussion was going fine for a while...