08-05-2002 06:22									#31
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I agree about the playing civ3 your own way. i just want a mod that is 75-90% close then I can finish my personal touches. I'll see if I can post the bic on a aol web page in a little while in case others want to see. I've only been working on it since this weekend so only the ancient era is close to being what I'd like. just started the medieval era last night so its way outta whack still. Some little things i've done are to increase settlers to 3 pop and made them wheeled to slow down AI spawl. I think AI spawl is the biggest factor in a game that moves way to fast.

I agree that adding more just for the sake of more isnt good. I look for things that fill a percieved void. Some of the buildings I've been looking to add are: shrine (culture only), mill, splitting harbor and airport into component buildings (seperate extra resource / veteran functions), shopping mall, train depot lowers corruption, radio station for culture, public schools for science, and sewers to allow larger cities (i already increased from 6/12 to 8/16, capitols get autmatic aquaduct and hospital). Some wonders I'm considering: olympics (double colosseum), polio vaccine (renamed cure for cancer), code of hammurabi (free courts), Refrigeration (renamed longevity), GPS (+1 sea movement), internet (modern great library), radio network (free radio stations), treasury bonds (5% interest). i also made some wonders dependant on buildings such as GL requires libraries, GW requires walls.

I've already started modifying costs. i started with the assumption that all foot units consist of 500 people, and mounted units are 100. That way I can try to calculate comparative costs. I also modified bonus HP as follows: all UU get +1, non-gunpowder ranged +1, gunpowder +2, vehicle armor +1, modern vehicle armor +2. All bonuses are accumulative. One game I had over 600 units simply because I had nothing else to build so I realized that costs were way to cheap. Once I got MA, the game was over by conquest in 4 turns against 12 large civs.

One of the first decisions needs to be on what type of map will we balance it on. If you balance on a huge map, the smaller mapped games may drag alot. Vice versa if we balance on a small map.

	08-05-2002 06:36									#32
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I hope this works, here is my URL for my bic. members.aol.com/civ3alphamod, and pick the alphamodbeta file.

	08-05-2002 06:51									#33
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Your Code of Hammurabi suggestion is EXCELLENT as an Ancient Wonder. When would it expire?

And perhaps, in the Industrial Age onwards, it could be replaced by a Supreme Court small wonder?

Matt

	08-05-2002 07:11									#34
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With the except of great library -> internet, i dont usually like wonders that replace others. I figure the Code laid the groundwork for all future laws, therefore it wouldnt expire otherwise you'd be forced to build courts late in the game. To me, wonders are either unique, or named after the first country to do it. I had actually considered the supreme court but ruled against it due to its lack of uniqueness. I also considered calling it Justinian Law.

Some wonders i think also need to be modified. I'm unaware of any real life correlation between the pyramids and granaries. It should be a cultural or happiness wonder.

	08-05-2002 07:12									#35
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I suggest the Supreme Court minor wonder as a way for other civs to get the same bonus late in the game, but without the culture.

Matt

	08-05-2002 07:13									#36
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Harlan, the debate I am talking about has been going on between a couple of us who have been working on the mod, not here in the forums. And it hasn't really been a debate, more me trying to figure out where things should go historically!

	08-05-2002 07:56									#37
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I didnt think you can use small wonders in that way. Better to design the supreme court as another FP.

	08-05-2002 12:55									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Bane Star, That's cool that you're making a new modpack with so many new graphics. I hope though your brother focuses first on making unit graphics for units not already in the game. Why even make duplicates of ones that already exist? Also, over at civfanatics, some people are working on some really good graphics relating to the Alexander the Great era so you might want to check for such stuff to avoid duplication of effort.

Oh dont worry If anyone has allready got units made, The best part I loved about Civ2 was the Supreme variety of graphics that others had made, so that I could choose the units I wanted when making a scenario. If I make up stuff that is allready done, it'll just be someone elses 'choice' later on which is more to thier tastes (oh and In 3D max, we have to make complete body shapes/ clothing at least once as a 'starting point' so making duplicates of allready existing troops will happen even if we dont want to.

	08-05-2002 13:10									#39
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I got the download, Alpha Wolf. However, its hard for me to understand tech tree ideas without an actual tech tree showing lines to and fro. Do you have, or could you make, something like that?

I'd also like to hear feedback on some ideas mentioned earlier, such as how to make Walls more important, and changing the food eat citizen eats from 2 to 3.

I'd say balance on a regular sized map. The ability to change tech rates by map size should do wonders for not having dragging on other sizes, if adjusted properly.

Settler sprawl: I think this is much improved since the patch, though still a problem. Wheeled is good. Eating 3 pop may be too much if the food citizens eat is boosted. Seems like a thing to playtest.

Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)

Mill: maybe, if effects aren't too unbalancing (when Factories are available, I stop whatever else I'm doing and produce as many Factories as fast as I can. I'd probably do the same with Mill. This could give me a big production lead over the AI civs. Maybe 25% for cities with rivers only?

splitting harbor and airport into component buildings (seperate extra resource / veteran functions): I agree 100%. Also, airport and harbor should be made more useful so that every city that can build one would want to (esp. if half of their previous value is stripped away).

shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages

train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?

radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings

public schools for science - why?

sewers to allow larger cities - what about Hospital doing this?

capitols get autmatic aquaduct and hospital - interesting idea - I like it

I'll get back on the wonders. I haven't thought about specifics here yet.

Rhuarc,
Why don't you post your tech tree as it stands now, so people can have a look at it?

Last edited by Harlan on 08-05-2002 at 13:16

	08-05-2002 23:25									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Harlan I got the download, Alpha Wolf. However, its hard for me to understand tech tree ideas without an actual tech tree showing lines to and fro. Do you have, or could you make, something like that?

I've been working on that but the lines between the techs seem to be hard coded so its a giant mess right now . I hope to have that done this weekend.

quote: I'd also like to hear feedback on some ideas mentioned earlier, such as how to make Walls more important, and changing the food eat citizen eats from 2 to 3.

I'm not sure how to increase the usefulness of the walls unfortunately.

quote: I'd say balance on a regular sized map. The ability to change tech rates by map size should do wonders for not having dragging on other sizes, if adjusted properly.

OK.

quote: Settler sprawl: I think this is much improved since the patch, though still a problem. Wheeled is good. Eating 3 pop may be too much if the food citizens eat is boosted. Seems like a thing to playtest.

I once long ago tried the 3 food per pop, but since very few tiles can ever produce 3 food, pop stagnants quickly around 3 or 4. Might be possible if we jack up the food rates on resources but that leaves civs with minimal resources at a huge disadvantage. Also, dont forget that the AIs tend to build their capitols where they start so many AI capitols will never grow unless they are surrounded by grassland (dont forget the depotism food penalty).

quote: Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)

I agree on principle. Gameplay reasons are: 1) something to build besides military (I think that theres too many early wars because the AI runs out of buildings to build). 2) To increase overall culture. i see the culture rings can be manipulated on the general tab in the editor so that may be a preferred way to increase the rings. I just havent played with that yet.

quote: Mill: maybe, if effects aren't too unbalancing (when Factories are available, I stop whatever else I'm doing and produce as many Factories as fast as I can. I'd probably do the same with Mill. This could give me a big production lead over the AI civs. Maybe 25% for cities with rivers only?

Definitely confined to rivers, and very very expensive because the only flag available gives a 50% increase. i wish 10% and 25% flags were available.

quote: splitting harbor and airport into component buildings (seperate extra resource / veteran functions): I agree 100%. Also, airport and harbor should be made more useful so that every city that can build one would want to (esp. if half of their previous value is stripped away).

Any ideas how to make them more valuable? I was thinking that harbor -> port(+1 food, i wish +1 gold) & naval station(veteran), same for airport(airbase). I dont see any other flags that would be practical.

quote: shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages

they are luxury increasers. i rarely ever look at the city views had hadnt noticed that.

quote: train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?

I'd move police stations earlier. Rome I thought had praectors(sp?) that were the equivalent of police stations.

quote: radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings

You need radio stations to build the radio network.

quote: public schools for science - why?

Raise the cost of later techs, so that a new science building is necessary. Again something else to build besides military. A common theme is that too many military units are built for lack of anything else to build.

quote: sewers to allow larger cities - what about Hospital doing this?

yep, these are renamed hospitals unless i can figure out a real seperate reason for a hospital.

quote: capitols get autmatic aquaduct and hospital - interesting idea - I like it

Thanks. Gave me my Romes

	09-05-2002 01:20									#41
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Hi,
I'll respond to other stuff later, but a couple of quick points. First, in the Civ Editor, I noticed that Factory for instance is set a Production = 2, and that gives a 50% boost. So I assume that one could set Production = 1 for a 25% boost, no?

Second, here is the terrain chart from the Double Your Pleasure mod, which uses a citizen eats 3 system:

Type F/S/C I/M/R
------------------------------
Desert 0/1/1 - 1/1/1
Plains 2/2/1 - 1/1/1
Grassland 3/0/1 - 2/0/1
Tundra 0/0/0 - 0/2/1
Floodplains 4/0/0 - 2/0/1
Hills 1/2/1 - 1/2/1
Mountains 0/3/1 - 0/2/1
Forest 1/2/1 - 0/1/2
Jungle 2/1/1 - 0/2/1
Coast 3/0/1 - 0/0/0
Sea 2/1/1 - 0/0/0
Ocean 0/0/0 - 0/0/0

Removed Mining from Grasslands
Upped the food production for Grassland, Plains, and Hills
Upped the shield production of forest and mountains
Increased commerce production of all terrain
Increased Irrigation bonus for Grassland, Plains, Hills, Desert, and Flood Plains to compensate for the additional food consumption
Can mine forests (think lumber mill)
Tundra and desert produce no food


These would be pretty close to the settings I'd want (I'm not sure about mining forests, esp. as that could be a backdoor to mined grassland). Food from bonus resources would also be boosted, remember, and there's the free center tile every city gets. The Despotism rule is any tile producing more than 2 produces one less, so an irrigated grassland tile in a Despotism would be adding +1 food.

I think with these changes most cities would not stop at 3 or 4, but also most would not make it to huge levels early (unless in very fertile spots). The AI may actually fare pretty well under this system, since they start irrigating from the get-go, while the smart human player doesn't since there's no need till the government changes. Now all those AI irrigations would actually be producing something.

	09-05-2002 02:29									#42
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quote:
I've been working on that but the lines between the techs seem to be hard coded so its a giant mess right now . I hope to have that done this weekend.

There's are files you can edit to change those lines. But maybe you have some notes or drawings or something else to pass on, or is it all in your head?

quote:
Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)
I agree on principle. Gameplay reasons are: 1) something to build besides military (I think that theres too many early wars because the AI runs out of buildings to build). 2) To increase overall culture. i see the culture rings can be manipulated on the general tab in the editor so that may be a preferred way to increase the rings. I just havent played with that yet.

I didn't realize there was a lack of things to build problem. I actually haven't played Civ3 that much. I've only really started playing since the patch came out since the game seemed in beta mode previously, and since then I've never ever made it to Flight once.

Is that something other people have noticed? Just the same, I think it would be better to do point 2 and increase costs of things already in the game to solve the not enough stuff to build problem. Only add things that are really needed, not just as filler cos there isn't enough stuff to build.

quote:
Definitely confined to rivers, and very very expensive because the only flag available gives a 50% increase. i wish 10% and 25% flags were available.

See my point above- I think 25% flags are available, but only for production.

quote:
Any ideas how to make them more valuable? I was thinking that harbor -> port(+1 food, i wish +1 gold) & naval station(veteran), same for airport(airbase). I dont see any other flags that would be practical.

For Harbor I'd say add +50% trade (and raise its cost some). A bit extreme I know, but consider that 90% of humanity lives within 100 miles of the coast. Given that water squares give lots of trade, this would tend to make coastal cities trade powerhouses, and in a way that the AI couldn't fail to pick up on. I think it would be a good step towards more differentiation betwen cities so you tend to have trade or production but not always both, which would make things more interesting.

Names - Harbor seems fine to me, and I prefer Naval Base to Naval Station.

Airport I'd have to think about.

quote:
shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages
they are luxury increasers. i rarely ever look at the city views had hadnt noticed that.

Howabout this for Airport instead?

quote:
train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?
I'd move police stations earlier. Rome I thought had praectors(sp?) that were the equivalent of police stations.

I'd rather not deal with corruption this way - having each city build something to reduce it, when its a catch 22, cos those cities are too corrupt to build anything. Better to deal with it centrally. Code of Hammuradi concept - thumbs up. Supreme Court small wonder - thumbs up, too bad it doesn't work! At least one additional Forbidden City type small wonder. Another wonder that builds a Police Station in every city. Maybe throw the free Courthouses function onto a number of later wonders as a bonus, so that eventually everyone who gets a wonder doesn't ever need to build a Courthouse? More along these lines than another building, I say.

quote:
radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings
You need radio stations to build the radio network.

What's the radio network?

quote:
public schools for science - why?
Raise the cost of later techs, so that a new science building is necessary. Again something else to build besides military. A common theme is that too many military units are built for lack of anything else to build.

I can see this, but also generally boost the cost of building things, esp. as the game goes on. When is the not enough things to build problem most acute?

	09-05-2002 02:33									#43
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Now that makes sense to me if you increase the food on each tile. I think flood plains needs a clay resource and a shields resource for grasslands if you cant mine them (there are lots of quarries in grasslands). I'd narrowly vote against mining forests as long as there is a lumber resource. I dont see getting 2 food from a jungle (its a shame the game treats the jungles as a swamp replacement). I'd lean more towards 1/3/0, 0/0/1. When I get home tonight, I'll look at a few of my games and see how those cities would fare. My gut instinct is that it wont make a large diference except in some silly cases where huge game cities exist where no real city could grow (a good thing). Gut says that implementing this AND settlers=3 pop could be supported. I see cities growing faster, because the first few tiles are still going to be your best food producers, and it wont slow down the AI spawl. A city with only 2 irrigated grasslands will be able to spit out a settler every 30 turns (w/o the game in front of me, this is out of memory so i may be a little off). City=2/1/x, grasslands=5/0/x (assuming no bonus shields on either grassland), total=12/1/x, food eaten 6, which means a city grows every 3.33333 turns (20 per pop growth). Even taking off 3 pop for a settler, this city will grow fast until it gets to less productive tiles. As a result, I'd lean towards grasslands as 3/0/1, 1/0/1. I dont see any other glaring faults except the 1 shield out of sea. This IMO s/b 0.

BTW, as the game currently stands + settler=3, greatly slows done early AI expansion. By the early AD tho, the AI settler machine is usually running full blast.

	09-05-2002 03:12									#44
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Harlan I've been working on that but the lines between the techs seem to be hard coded so its a giant mess right now . I hope to have that done this weekend. There's are files you can edit to change those lines. But maybe you have some notes or drawings or something else to pass on, or is it all in your head?

its on a now totally unreadable piece of paper. I am using paintbrush to move things around, thats why its taking so long. I dont have an graphics software

quote: Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible) I agree on principle. Gameplay reasons are: 1) something to build besides military (I think that theres too many early wars because the AI runs out of buildings to build). 2) To increase overall culture. i see the culture rings can be manipulated on the general tab in the editor so that may be a preferred way to increase the rings. I just havent played with that yet. I didn't realize there was a lack of things to build problem. I actually haven't played Civ3 that much. I've only really started playing since the patch came out since the game seemed in beta mode previously, and since then I've never ever made it to Flight once. Is that something other people have noticed? Just the same, I think it would be better to do point 2 and increase costs of things already in the game to solve the not enough stuff to build problem. Only add things that are really needed, not just as filler cos there isn't enough stuff to build.

It seems like my core cities early in the game get converted to wealth alot since the AI is substantially better at building wonders in 1.21. #2 is actually my preferred option also, but its more time consuming to test out.

quote: Definitely confined to rivers, and very very expensive because the only flag available gives a 50% increase. i wish 10% and 25% flags were available. See my point above- I think 25% flags are available, but only for production.

DOHHHHHHHHH, i knew that already but had forgotten about it.

quote: Any ideas how to make them more valuable? I was thinking that harbor -> port(+1 food, i wish +1 gold) & naval station(veteran), same for airport(airbase). I dont see any other flags that would be practical. For Harbor I'd say add +50% trade (and raise its cost some). A bit extreme I know, but consider that 90% of humanity lives within 100 miles of the coast. Given that water squares give lots of trade, this would tend to make coastal cities trade powerhouses, and in a way that the AI couldn't fail to pick up on. I think it would be a good step towards more differentiation betwen cities so you tend to have trade or production but not always both, which would make things more interesting. Names - Harbor seems fine to me, and I prefer Naval Base to Naval Station. Airport I'd have to think about.

DOHHHHHHH, someone was talking about tv stations when I wrote naval station. It should be naval base and air base.

quote: shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages they are luxury increasers. i rarely ever look at the city views had hadnt noticed that. Howabout this for Airport instead?

I was thinking it already did. This was just a real world case where everyone wants that big shopping mall nearby. Personally as a guy, i can do without it

quote: train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine? I'd move police stations earlier. Rome I thought had praectors(sp?) that were the equivalent of police stations. I'd rather not deal with corruption this way - having each city build something to reduce it, when its a catch 22, cos those cities are too corrupt to build anything. Better to deal with it centrally. Code of Hammuradi concept - thumbs up. Supreme Court small wonder - thumbs up, too bad it doesn't work! At least one additional Forbidden City type small wonder. Another wonder that builds a Police Station in every city. Maybe throw the free Courthouses function onto a number of later wonders as a bonus, so that eventually everyone who gets a wonder doesn't ever need to build a Courthouse? More along these lines than another building, I say. radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings You need radio stations to build the radio network. What's the radio network?

The radio network is my additional FP wonder. 4 or 5 radio stations are needed to build it. I've liked the concept of building requirements for a wonder: libraries for the GL, walls for the GW. i worry about giving the same benefit to multiple wonders as the human is smart enough to go for them all just to deprave the AI of them.

In reality, train stations created many a boom town, and many more towns to turn into dust when they didnt get one. Given game options, IMO, corruption came the closest to that, altho I'm open to other suggestions. Also because I live near Chicago, there's a noticeable prosperity between those burbs with a train station and those w/o.

quote: public schools for science - why? Raise the cost of later techs, so that a new science building is necessary. Again something else to build besides military. A common theme is that too many military units are built for lack of anything else to build. I can see this, but also generally boost the cost of building things, esp. as the game goes on. When is the not enough things to build problem most acute?

Definitely the later ages need to be more expensive. i'd already started on the units but havent gotten to any buildings yet.

On a side note, i think we need to split govs into older versions and newer versions to reflect some real life issues. i'm sure a modern soldier expects much better supplies than a civil war soldier. So the older version of democracy require unit main of 1 but the newer version require 2/unit. To compensate, the newer democracy is more organized and efficient (ok, stop laughing) so gold and production bonses are better, etc.

	09-05-2002 04:08									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Whoa - even more posting! I'm at work and shouldn't be doing this!

quote:
I've already started modifying costs. i started with the assumption that all foot units consist of 500 people, and mounted units are 100. That way I can try to calculate comparative costs. I also modified bonus HP as follows: all UU get +1, non-gunpowder ranged +1, gunpowder +2, vehicle armor +1, modern vehicle armor +2. All bonuses are accumulative. One game I had over 600 units simply because I had nothing else to build so I realized that costs were way to cheap. Once I got MA, the game was over by conquest in 4 turns against 12 large civs.

I'd say be more mellow on the hit points, if only cos there is a graphical limit on hit points, beyond which the hit point bar is too high (I once played a mod where all hit points were doubled and this was a problem for that). Howabout 3 different eras, first one starting at gunpowder, and +1 for each era? Much easier for people to understand. +1 for UU, I'm kind of split on that idea. Has it been playtested?

Also,
I notice AW that you have Socialism and City Alliance as new government types. I'm not so big on those, esp. Socialism (since it seems more like a compromise thing than a thing on its own). City Alliance would be okay if you mean City State, and plan that to be an early Republic type, with Republic coming much later (Renaissance or so).

What do you think about my Theocracy, Fascism and Empire? Oops - don't think I mentioned the last one before. That would be like an early Communism in function (Communal) allowing large empires but bad science, kind of a Despotism plus. I also think there should be more max science limits on gvmt types, to help slow science progress.

Here, by the way, are some thoughts I wrote up the other day on two new strategic resources. There would be a bunch of new Bonus resources too, along the lines of the resource graphics I've been making.


Copper (available with Bronze Working)
allows:

Colossus
Hoplite
Archer
Bowman
Cannon (plus Iron)
Ship of the Line
All air units (perhaps)
All modern ships (perhaps)
Statue of Liberty (a new Democracy-only wonder)

Timber (available at start)
allows:

Catapult
Trebuchet
Caravel
Frigate
Galleon
Man O' War
Ship of the Line
Magellan’s Voyage

I'm also toying with the idea of adding a Marble strategic resource, which would most facilitate the building of wonders and big buildings like Bank. Is that a good idea?

	09-05-2002 10:48									#46
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Harlan I'd say be more mellow on the hit points, if only cos there is a graphical limit on hit points, beyond which the hit point bar is too high (I once played a mod where all hit points were doubled and this was a problem for that). Howabout 3 different eras, first one starting at gunpowder, and +1 for each era? Much easier for people to understand. +1 for UU, I'm kind of split on that idea. Has it been playtested?

As far as i can see, the graphics prob hit hit points was resolved in 1.21. From my early games so far, the increased HP has worked wonderfully. There is still the occasional unexpected result, but in general, I'm thrilled by outcomes. The best is the Jaq Warrior versus warrior. The Jaqs get the bonus HP and win more often which is what I expected. I havent had any knights vs riders battles but I would expect ridrs to have a slight advantage (after all, UU were the elite of the elite).

quote: Also, I notice AW that you have Socialism and City Alliance as new government types. I'm not so big on those, esp. Socialism (since it seems more like a compromise thing than a thing on its own). City Alliance would be okay if you mean City State, and plan that to be an early Republic type, with Republic coming much later (Renaissance or so). What do you think about my Theocracy, Fascism and Empire? Oops - don't think I mentioned the last one before. That would be like an early Communism in function (Communal) allowing large empires but bad science, kind of a Despotism plus. I also think there should be more max science limits on gvmt types, to help slow science progress.

I'm horrible at the government part, and these were just my initial atempts. i almost always play with exclusively monarchy. City Alliances was my attempt to simulate early Republics
I thought most of Europe was Socialist (a non-miltaristic communism), so it seems to be a viable government type. I'm not really sure of how governments should be designed, whether by power structure(elected vs inherited, etc), or ruling philosophy (religious vs commercial vs military, etc)

quote: Here, by the way, are some thoughts I wrote up the other day on two new strategic resources. There would be a bunch of new Bonus resources too, along the lines of the resource graphics I've been making. Copper (available with Bronze Working) allows: Colossus Hoplite Archer Bowman Cannon (plus Iron) Ship of the Line All air units (perhaps) All modern ships (perhaps) Statue of Liberty (a new Democracy-only wonder) Timber (available at start) allows: Catapult Trebuchet Caravel Frigate Galleon Man O' War Ship of the Line Magellan’s Voyage I'm also toying with the idea of adding a Marble strategic resource, which would most facilitate the building of wonders and big buildings like Bank. Is that a good idea?

Love the concepts but they didnt work out when I tried them before. The major problem being that you cant trade or colonize these resources so only those cities with the resource in their city influence could build the units. i dont think the AI could figure that out. I did add ivory as a requirement for elephants since its tradeable. I would add them as bonus resources (plus clay on flood plains) for now, and hope that the XP allows us to add more than 8 luxury resources. Might even think about replacing incense and/or dyes with yours

	09-05-2002 11:33									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Quick comment: why wouldn't Copper or Timber be tradable? They're strategic resources, after all. I've already tried a game or two with Timber added, and it worked fine (and was tradable).

I vaguely recall there being a limit of two extra working strategic resources, so we should leave it at that.

	09-05-2002 14:20									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Okay,
I'm on a roll. I've collected my thoughts regarding wonders, and here they are. It may seem I went overboard on new things, but I hope not. My thinking is, there are now so many different prerequisites, esp. government types, that the total number of wonders available to you will be pretty limited in fact. Hopefully it will be as if you are playing a different wonder race than your opponents most of the time.

My main thinking was to add wonders that would facilitate a balance between different government types, each getting their own share.

Then I threw in a few extras either cos they were "must haves" or fit the wonder powers really well. I wanted to have more Small Wonders, but unfortunately the powers they can have are so limited, and mostly used already.

Regarding Alpha Wolf's ideas, here was my reaction:

olympics (double colosseum)

Historically, Colosseums (mostly Roman thing) came basically after the Olympics (mostly a Greek thing)

polio vaccine (renamed cure for cancer)

I liked the idea of renaming this, but came up with a different name

code of hammurabi (free courts)

included this idea

Refrigeration (renamed longevity)

Sounds more like an advance, but I did the rename and move here as well

GPS (+1 sea movement)
I'm very involved in using GPS and it doesn't boost sea movement. If it did, it would do it equally for all civs, not just one

internet (modern great library)

included

radio network (free radio stations)

I really like the idea of Hollywood, so I'm thinking of that and movie theater instead of focusing on radio

treasury bonds (5% interest)

Seems too much like a current wonder, plus not very exciting title



This first section just explains more requirements for existing wonders. In a couple cases I thought the name should change. In the section of new wonders, I give requirements and effects. I'm just throwing ideas out there though, so consider this all very open and likely to change.

Note on the wonder prerequisites below: a lot is just common sense. You need to walk before you can run. For instance, obviously a civ would need to have some Harbors before needing the Lighthouse, and the city with the Lighthouse in it especially would need a Harbor.

EXISTING GREAT WONDERS (24)

Colossus
Copper, Monarchy, Coastal only, city must have Marketplace

Copernicus
X Libraries, city must have Library

National Healthcare (Cure for Cancer renamed)
X Research Labs, city must have Research Lab

Great Library
X Libraries, city must have Library

Great Wall (change function to Walls in every city?)
X Walls, city must have Walls
Despotism only

Lighthouse (Great Lighthouse renamed)
coastal, X Harbors, city must have Harbor

Hanging Gardens
Despotism only

Hoover Dam
coastal, X Hydro Plants ?

JS Bach’s Cathedral
X Cathedrals, city must have Cathedral

Leonardo’s Workshop
Republic only, city must have Barracks, Library

Pasteur’s Institute (renamed from Longevity, moved to Medicine)
city must have Hospital, University

Magellan’s Voyage
Timber, coastal, city must have Harbor

Manhattan Project
Uranium, city must have Factory

Newton’s Principia (Newton’s University renamed)
X Universities, city must have University

Oracle
Theocracy only, X Temples, city must have Temple

Pyramids (change function?)
Despotism only

SETI Program
must have Moon Landing

Shakespeare’s Theater (boost usefulness)
Monarchy only, X Colliseums, city must have Colliseum

Sistine Chapel
Theocracy only, city must have Cathedral

Smith’s Trading Company
X Banks, city must have Bank
Monarchy only

Sun Tzu’s Art of War
city must have Barracks

Theory of Evolution
Republic only, city must have University

United Nations
Democracy only

Universal Suffrage
Republic only, city must have University


EXISTING SMALL WONDERS: (10)

Moon Landing (renamed Apollo Program)
Aluminum, 4 Research Labs, city must have Research Lab

Battlefield Medicine
5 Hospitals, city must have Hospital

Sacred City (Forbidden Palace renamed)
at least 8 cities (how to change this in the editor???)

Heroic Epic
must have victorious Army

Intelligence Agency
Espionage advance

Iron Works
Iron, Coal in city radius

Military Academy
must have victorious Army

Pentagon
at least 3 Armies in field

Strategic Missile Defense
5 SAM Batteries

Stock Exchange (Wall Street renamed)
5 Banks, city must have Bank


NEW SMALL WONDER IDEAS: (5)

Royal Foundry
requires: Monarchy, Copper and Iron in city radius
effect: +50 production in city

Oil Refinery
requires: Oil in city radius
effect: 50% Production boost in city

National Museum
requires: 6 Public Schools
effect: boosts culture a big amount

Great University
requires: University in city
effect: big culture gain, +25% production in city

National Mint
requires: Copper, city must have Marketplace
effect: +3 happiness, good culture amount

NEW GREAT WONDERS: (17)

Hollywood
requires: 6 Movie Theaters
effect: +3 happiness in every city

Angkor Wat
requires: Theocracy, Spices
effect: +50 production in city, +1 happiness in continent

Cluny Abbey
requires: Theocracy, Cathedral in city
effect: free Monastery in every city, Monastery gives +25% production (Monastery cannot be built otherwise)

Code of Hammurabi
requires: Empire, Courthouse in city
effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

Taj Mahal
requires: Empire, Ivory
effect: +6 happiness in city, +1 happiness in all other cities

Wild Goose Pagoda
requires: Empire, Silk, 6 Marketplaces
effect:+2 free advances

Grand Canal
requires: Empire, coastal
effect: free Granaries in every city on continent

Forum
requires: Republic, 6 Courthouses
effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

Internet
requires: Democracy, 6 Public Schools
effect: free advances known by 2 other civs

Statue of Liberty
requires: Democracy , Copper
effect: reduces war weariness

Supreme Court
requires: Democracy, 6 Police Stations
effect: Police Station in every city

Kremlin
requires: Communism
effect: Walls in every city on continent

Das Kapital
requires: Communism, Mill in city
effect: Mill in every city

Five Year Plan
requires: Communism
effect: free Collective improvement in every city, Collective gives +25% production, pollution (Collective cannot be built otherwise)

Krupp Works
requires: Fascism, Coal, Iron, Oil, Factory in city
effect: Barracks in every city

Secret Police
requires: Fascism, Intelligence Agency
effect: Police Station in every city

Nuremberg Rallies
requires: Fascism
effect: +2 happiness in every city on continent



wonders per gvmt type:

3 Despotism (Great Wall, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens)
4 Monarchy (Colossus, Royal Foundry, Smith’s Trading Company, Shakespeare’s Theater)
4 Theocracy (Sistine Chapel, Oracle, Angkor Wat, Cluny Abbey)
4 Empire (Taj Mahal, Wild Goose Pagoda, Code of Hammurabi, Grand Canal)
4 Republic (Forum, Theory of Evolution, Universal Suffrage, Leonardo’s Workshop)
4 Democracy (Internet, Supreme Court, Statue of Liberty, United Nations)
3 Fascism (Nuremberg Rallies, Secret Police, Krupp Works)
3 Communism (Kremlin, Gulag System, Five Year Plan)

This was done assuming the gvmts of Empire, Theocracy and Fascism are added. City Alliance/ City State could be factored in pretty easily by moving Colossus, Oracle and Forum to that category, leaving most gvmt types with 3 wonders. I'd actually like that better.

I'm ready for suggestions, criticisms, etc... Explanations of why this or that if you need it.

And here already are the graphics we could use for each (I've had a pool of wonder pics to draw on for a long time now):



One concern is the ability of religious civs to switch governments without Anarchy. I could see the human player abusing that sometimes just to get a certain wonder. (I wonder, when you start producing a wonder limited by government type, and you switch governments while building it, do you have change production at that point?)

Last edited by Harlan on 09-05-2002 at 14:38

	09-05-2002 18:46									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If you change governments, do you lose the advantages?

Matt

	09-05-2002 19:32									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh, and as for copper, you'd probably have to set it to last for a long time without running out, since it would be needed and the beginning and very end of the game. It wouldn't do anyone any good for it all to run out just before you start needing copper wire.

Matt

	09-05-2002 21:02									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Man, I should be in class now, but my mind is on this.

Is it possible to have small wonders that can do the things that large wonders can?

Also, I think the maximum air range needs to be increased. An option to select how many squares radar could see would also be useful.

Matt

	09-05-2002 21:07									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Canadian_Patriot Man, I should be in class now, but my mind is on this. Is it possible to have small wonders that can do the things that large wonders can? Also, I think the maximum air range needs to be increased. An option to select how many squares radar could see would also be useful. Matt

this one is easy to answer so I'll tackle it first. Wonders and small wonders have different usable sets of flags, so unfortunately you cant turn a wonder into a small wonder with the same benefit

I totally agree about the air range limitation. Max of 8 is ridiculously small.

	09-05-2002 21:09									#53
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Canadian_Patriot If you change governments, do you lose the advantages? Matt

CP beat me to this one. i have alot of concern about government specific buildings in gameplay terms. Wil the AI start a wonder then change gov mid-stream thus wasting tons of shields?

	09-05-2002 21:28									#54
	Tired of ads?

I can understand why a democracy wouldn't be able to use a Nuremberg Rally, but why can't Communists use the Internet?

Matt

	09-05-2002 22:36									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Harlan My main thinking was to add wonders that would facilitate a balance between different government types, each getting their own share.

we need to determine if the AI can handle this effectively. One thing I've noticed about the AI when settlers=3 pop is that the AI will queue a settler long before they get to a pop of 4, so sometimes they are waiting for the pop to grow to 4 and arent producing anything as the settler sits at 1 turn to completion. Based on that, I doubt the AI can handle it

quote: Historically, Colosseums (mostly Roman thing) came basically after the Olympics (mostly a Greek thing)

I was thinking a cross between the 2 olympics (greek vs modern). In this case, a spread of colosseums creates a desire for international competition. What I really wanted was a small wonder called sports league that doubled colosseums.

quote: Refrigeration (renamed longevity) Sounds more like an advance, but I did the rename and move here as well

I thought of calling it an advance then coming up with a ganary type building and have ganaries obsolete with industrialization.

quote: GPS (+1 sea movement) I'm very involved in using GPS and it doesn't boost sea movement. If it did, it would do it equally for all civs, not just one

I partially disagree on this one. GPS allows exact positioning which decreases course corrections whch allows you to get there faster (thus traveling farther). If I had satellites up, there's nothing to say i MUST allow others to use it. I'm greedy...mine mine mine

quote: radio network (free radio stations) I really like the idea of Hollywood, so I'm thinking of that and movie theater instead of focusing on radio

I picked radio because we already have that advance, and it had such a unifying effect its its early days, plus its range is greater than tv. Notice that in most coups, radio stations are targeted very quickly. Also, i'd double their effect, not free stations, since it takes x number of them before you get a network.

quote: treasury bonds (5% interest) Seems too much like a current wonder, plus not very exciting title

Its a late industrial age wonder. I couldnt think of a good name. i had toyed with Commodities Exchange (there's those chicago roots again)

quote: EXISTING GREAT WONDERS (24) Colossus Copper, Monarchy, Coastal only, city must have Marketplace Copernicus X Libraries, city must have Library National Healthcare (Cure for Cancer renamed) X Research Labs, city must have Research Lab Great Library X Libraries, city must have Library

quote: Great Wall (change function to Walls in every city?) X Walls, city must have Walls Despotism only

I'd leave its benfits as are. I wouldnt attach a gov-type to a physical wonder. The wall once built is there regardless of gov type.

quote: Lighthouse (Great Lighthouse renamed) coastal, X Harbors, city must have Harbor Hanging Gardens Despotism only

quote: Hoover Dam coastal, X Hydro Plants ?

I'd leave exactly as it currently is. Unless you want to change it to the TVA (tennessee valley authority). The dam MUST be a river wonder not coastal. In the case of Hoover, its a lone dam supplying power for a large region.

quote: JS Bach’s Cathedral X Cathedrals, city must have Cathedral

quote: Leonardo’s Workshop Republic only, city must have Barracks, Library

not sure about the library, maybe university instead, if at all.

quote: Pasteur’s Institute (renamed from Longevity, moved to Medicine) city must have Hospital, University

my original name had been pasteurization but i wasnt sure if i was spelling it right so i went simpler

quote: Magellan’s Voyage Timber, coastal, city must have Harbor

quote: Manhattan Project Uranium, city must have Factory

i would say barracks and universty being that the University of Chicago did alot of the initial work as i understand it.

quote: Newton’s Principia (Newton’s University renamed) X Universities, city must have University

if memory serves me, this is a city affectng wonder so i'd only require the city to have a university.

quote: Oracle Theocracy only, X Temples, city must have Temple

quote: Pyramids (change function?) Despotism only

To me this is a cultural impact only since IRL they are giant tombs and not ganaries. Korn i thin it is creates a culture building in every city for pyramids. that building cant be built any other way. I like that approach for this one.

quote: SETI Program must have Moon Landing

see note on moon landing

quote: Shakespeare’s Theater (boost usefulness) Monarchy only, X Colliseums, city must have Colliseum

i'd favor adding a theatre building and using that instead of colosseums. Affects 8 citizins is pretty good benefit already. Only requirement would be city has a theatre.

quote: Sistine Chapel Theocracy only, city must have Cathedral

quote: Smith’s Trading Company X Banks, city must have Bank Monarchy only

Disagree on this being gov dependent. I'd love to make it civ attribute dependent (commercial only).

quote: Sun Tzu’s Art of War city must have Barracks

would love this to be a militaristic only wonder

quote: Theory of Evolution Republic only, city must have University

why republic?

quote: United Nations Democracy only

what about civs that supposedly shun democracy?

quote: Universal Suffrage Republic only, city must have University

what about other govs that suffer war weariness? What does women's right to vote have to due with war weariness any way?

quote: EXISTING SMALL WONDERS: (10) Moon Landing (renamed Apollo Program) Aluminum, 4 Research Labs, city must have Research Lab

awww, give the USA credit. We are still the only ones to walk on the moon.

quote: Battlefield Medicine 5 Hospitals, city must have Hospital

i made this medicine and victorious army, after all this is a benefit for warring civs.

quote: Sacred City (Forbidden Palace renamed) at least 8 cities (how to change this in the editor???)

At one point I had this called "Provencial Capitol". If possible for only elected type govs. FP is based on half the optimal cities for the map size.

quote: Heroic Epic must have victorious Army Intelligence Agency Espionage advance Iron Works Iron, Coal in city radius Military Academy must have victorious Army Pentagon at least 3 Armies in field Strategic Missile Defense 5 SAM Batteries Stock Exchange (Wall Street renamed) 5 Banks, city must have Bank

quote: NEW SMALL WONDER IDEAS: (5) Royal Foundry requires: Monarchy, Copper and Iron in city radius effect: +50 production in city

good idea, but way way too powerful. when its available, most cities are lucky to have 10 shields. adding 50 shields to a ancient city would create a monster production center that would unbalance the game.

quote: Oil Refinery requires: Oil in city radius effect: 50% Production boost in city National Museum requires: 6 Public Schools effect: boosts culture a big amount Great University requires: University in city effect: big culture gain, +25% production in city

quote: National Mint requires: Copper, city must have Marketplace effect: +3 happiness, good culture amount

i'd think bank would be a better requirement than market.

quote: NEW GREAT WONDERS: (17) Hollywood requires: 6 Movie Theaters effect: +3 happiness in every city

quote: Angkor Wat requires: Theocracy, Spices effect: +50 production in city, +1 happiness in continent

i'd lose the production boost, i dont see the connection.

quote: Cluny Abbey requires: Theocracy, Cathedral in city effect: free Monastery in every city, Monastery gives +25% production (Monastery cannot be built otherwise)

neutral on this one

quote: Code of Hammurabi requires: Empire, Courthouse in city effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

This code was the basis of most civs, so I'd not make it gov specific.

quote: Taj Mahal requires: Empire, Ivory effect: +6 happiness in city, +1 happiness in all other cities

quote: Wild Goose Pagoda requires: Empire, Silk, 6 Marketplaces effect:+2 free advances

never heard of it

quote: Grand Canal requires: Empire, coastal effect: free Granaries in every city on continent

not sure of the correlation between a canal and free granaries

quote: Forum requires: Republic, 6 Courthouses effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

in general, i'm against requiring too many of a building to get free ones. If we remove the gov dependency on Code of Hammurabi, this is a dup wonder.

quote: Internet requires: Democracy, 6 Public Schools effect: free advances known by 2 other civs

dont tell china that they cant have the internet (they are #2 in the number of real life users)

quote: Statue of Liberty requires: Democracy , Copper effect: reduces war weariness

quote: Supreme Court requires: Democracy, 6 Police Stations effect: Police Station in every city

How about this being MI6, or CIA, KGB, or FBI?

quote: Kremlin requires: Communism effect: Walls in every city on continent

Iron Curtain?

quote: Das Kapital requires: Communism, Mill in city effect: Mill in every city

correlation?

quote: Five Year Plan requires: Communism effect: free Collective improvement in every city, Collective gives +25% production, pollution (Collective cannot be built otherwise)

quote: Krupp Works requires: Fascism, Coal, Iron, Oil, Factory in city effect: Barracks in every city

As i understood it, krupp was an industrial complex.

quote: Secret Police requires: Fascism, Intelligence Agency effect: Police Station in every city

Combine wth Supreme Court

quote: Nuremberg Rallies requires: Fascism effect: +2 happiness in every city on continent

: rallies dont have lasting effects for millenias


Love the graphics.

PS.....hope we didnt hijack this thread too much from CP

	10-05-2002 04:25									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Heh...too late...

I'd still like to talk about units eventually....

Matt

	10-05-2002 04:39									#57
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Blow by blow reply (part 1!):

quote:

Originally posted by Harlan
My main thinking was to add wonders that would facilitate a balance between different government types, each getting their own share.

we need to determine if the AI can handle this effectively. One thing I've noticed about the AI when settlers=3 pop is that the AI will queue a settler long before they get to a pop of 4, so sometimes they are waiting for the pop to grow to 4 and arent producing anything as the settler sits at 1 turn to completion. Based on that, I doubt the AI can handle it

Numerous other mods have government specific wonders, and I don't know of any problems. If you change governments, apparently the effects of the wonder still last. The AI Settler thing doesn't sound good. Howabout trying increasing the shield cost of Settlers, and see if the AI is smarter about that? That could have the same slow down effect.

quote:
Historically, Colosseums (mostly Roman thing) came basically after the Olympics (mostly a Greek thing)

I was thinking a cross between the 2 olympics (greek vs modern). In this case, a spread of colosseums creates a desire for international competition. What I really wanted was a small wonder called sports league that doubled colosseums.

I'm not against that, and a doubling of Colosseums would be a good thing as a non-religious happiness boost. We can throw it on the list.

quote:
Refrigeration (renamed longevity)

Sounds more like an advance, but I did the rename and move here as well

I thought of calling it an advance then coming up with a ganary type building and have ganaries obsolete with industrialization.

Given the limited flags available, I don't like the idea. Because just when food production should be surging, all your granaries disappear and your growth actually goes down. Rebuild them, and you're only back where you started. CTP had an improvement flag that allowed you to boost food growth by 10 or 20%, so there was a modern Silo building. But lacking that flag, no need for this (also the Granary graphic changes to a Silo looking thing over time).

quote:
I partially disagree on this one. GPS allows exact positioning which decreases course corrections whch allows you to get there faster (thus traveling farther). If I had satellites up, there's nothing to say i MUST allow others to use it. I'm greedy...mine mine mine

Its one of those things where you can't stop others from using it, just like anyone with a radio can pick up radio stations. No matter how greedy you are! So I still disagree that the makers of a GPS system have their ships go faster.

quote:
radio network (free radio stations)
I picked radio because we already have that advance, and it had such a unifying effect its its early days, plus its range is greater than tv. Notice that in most coups, radio stations are targeted very quickly. Also, i'd double their effect, not free stations, since it takes x number of them before you get a network.

I still prefer Hollywood. Come on - the stars, the action, the glamour! Radio can't compete. True, radio had its moment, but Hollywood was huge then, and is still huge now. Also, a very specific thing, as opposed to "radio network", which seems to me nothing more than a bunch of radio stations.

quote:
treasury bonds (5% interest)
Its a late industrial age wonder. I couldnt think of a good name. i had toyed with Commodities Exchange (there's those chicago roots again)

I still don't see the point - you already have another wonder doing this, isn't that enough?

quote:
Great Wall (change function to Walls in every city?)
X Walls, city must have Walls
Despotism only

I'd leave its benfits as are. I wouldnt attach a gov-type to a physical wonder. The wall once built is there regardless of gov type.

The problem is, is Walls aren't being built, then what's the point of doubling them? If we can solve the problem of getting more Walls built, then keep current function, if not, then change it.

As I mentioned before, the effects of a wonder stay even when you change gvmts. Clearly only a Despotic type gvmt could mobilize the workforce to build the Great Wall. Apparently hundreds of thousands died during the construction.

quote:
Hoover Dam
coastal, X Hydro Plants ?

I'd leave exactly as it currently is. Unless you want to change it to the TVA (tennessee valley authority). The dam MUST be a river wonder not coastal. In the case of Hoover, its a lone dam supplying power for a large region.

Whoa - I just realized something through this typo. The river flag is an improvement flag, which means improvement flags work for all great and small wonders! I didn't really realize that. That could lead to some cool stuff.

Perhaps X Factories is a better requirement than X Hydro Plants (plus river). I don't want this very powerful wonder to be easy to make.

quote:
Leonardo’s Workshop
Republic only, city must have Barracks, Library

not sure about the library, maybe university instead, if at all.

I like the idea of tough prerequisites for this one, since this is such a powerful wonder. So university is even better.

quote:
Pasteur’s Institute (renamed from Longevity, moved to Medicine)
city must have Hospital, University

my original name had been pasteurization but i wasnt sure if i was spelling it right so i went simpler

Actualy should be Pasteur Institute. Its a real thing, and was/is one of the biggest organizations in medical research, so definitely fits the bill.

quote:
Manhattan Project
Uranium, city must have Factory

i would say barracks and universty being that the University of Chicago did alot of the initial work as i understand it.

Okay. I was trying to get at the fact that one needs a large industrial base to even try to make the Manhattan Project, so maybe keep Factory prereq as well, or X Factories in civ.

quote:
Newton’s Principia (Newton’s University renamed)
X Universities, city must have University

if memory serves me, this is a city affectng wonder so i'd only require the city to have a university.

okay.

quote:
Pyramids (change function?)
Despotism only

To me this is a cultural impact only since IRL they are giant tombs and not ganaries. Korn i thin it is creates a culture building in every city for pyramids. that building cant be built any other way. I like that approach for this one.

Yes, but actually I can see the argument for Granaries here. The Pyramids are an example of a form of rule called Hydroraulic Despotism by some historians. In river valleys like the Nile, lots of irrigation is needed to benefit from the main river, and a powerful central organization is needed to plan and build all that necessary infrastructure. Governmental involvement and control is much higher, so having everyone follow the government without question is much more important. Thus such rulers typically call themselves Gods, and create huge works to magnify their importance. So there's a direct link between big monuments like the Pyramids, and boosted food production, through a government organized irrigation system. You see the same thing go on in other river valleys needing lots of irrigation, with the Tower of Babel, Angkor Wat, and so on.

So I say keep it, but add the river flag.

quote:
Shakespeare’s Theater (boost usefulness)
Monarchy only, X Colliseums, city must have Colliseum

i'd favor adding a theatre building and using that instead of colosseums. Affects 8 citizins is pretty good benefit already. Only requirement would be city has a theatre.

I can see the appeal of a Theater Building, but what would it do? I'm against culture only things, as mentioned before.

quote:
Smith’s Trading Company
X Banks, city must have Bank
Monarchy only

Disagree on this being gov dependent. I'd love to make it civ attribute dependent (commercial only).

Unfortunately we can't make these attribute dependent, which really sucks. Some of these government assignments are kind of arbitrary just to have a number of unique ones for each gvmt type. I drop this requirement if you like. Part of the thinking was to prevent Empire or Theocracy gvmts from being able to build this. We can't have more than one gvmt requirement, or I would make it Republic or Monarchy. Maybe make a Republic equivalent?

quote:
Sun Tzu’s Art of War
city must have Barracks

would love this to be a militaristic only wonder

So would I!

quote:
Theory of Evolution
Republic only, city must have University

why republic?

Think of the other types likely in existence at this point in time - Empire, Theocracy, and Monarchy. The first two are low on science things, and certainly wouldn't allow such heresy. You could make an argument for Monarchy, but a Republic would be most open to new ideas.

quote:
United Nations
Democracy only

what about civs that supposedly shun democracy?

They wouldn't build this. This definitely needs a civ limit - would you trust a United Nations built in a Fascist country?

quote:
Universal Suffrage
Republic only, city must have University

what about other govs that suffer war weariness? What does women's right to vote have to due with war weariness any way?

I think there's only two: Republic and Democracy. Statue of Liberty is essentially a duplicate of this, for Democracy. A common gmvt path would be going from Republic to Democracy, in which case you could get both and get double the effect. Second question I can't answer!

quote:
Moon Landing (renamed Apollo Program)
Aluminum, 4 Research Labs, city must have Research Lab

awww, give the USA credit. We are still the only ones to walk on the moon.

If you think there's nothing strange in have 5 or more Apollo Programs, then fine. I guess the God Apollo is just really popular!

quote:
Battlefield Medicine
5 Hospitals, city must have Hospital

i made this medicine and victorious army, after all this is a benefit for warring civs.

Okay.

	10-05-2002 04:48									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm a wordy guy, but I believe this is the first post I ever had to split in two!

quote:
Sacred City (Forbidden Palace renamed)
at least 8 cities (how to change this in the editor???)

At one point I had this called "Provencial Capitol". If possible for only elected type govs. FP is based on half the optimal cities for the map size.

Good to know, but there's no flag to check regarding this - it must be hard wired to the additional Palace effect (lame!).

quote:
Royal Foundry
requires: Monarchy, Copper and Iron in city radius
effect: +50 production in city

good idea, but way way too powerful. when its available, most cities are lucky to have 10 shields. adding 50 shields to a ancient city would create a monster production center that would unbalance the game.

A couple of notes. First, I haven't included tech prereqs for any of these, since the tech tree is in flux. Maybe you want to go through all the wonders and suggest which techs they'd belong to. This could have a tech making it come later. Second, I also haven't included when wonders expire, for similar reasons. But this is one I definitely would want to expire, or else it would get really huge once Factories and such came along. So a productive city yes, but only for a limited time. The Iron Works is 100% boost and isn't destabilizing, and Mills would give a 25% boost, so I don't think a 50% boost is that big. Esp. since you have no control over what city has both Copper and Iron, if any - it could be a marginal city.

Bottom line - I get a kick out of the Iron Works, and this is essentially an earlier version of that.

quote:
National Mint
requires: Copper, city must have Marketplace
effect: +3 happiness, good culture amount

i'd think bank would be a better requirement than market.

I'm thinking this would be a much earlier thing, maybe even Currency as prereq. After all, governments had Mints making coins as far back as there were coins.

quote:
Angkor Wat
requires: Theocracy, Spices
effect: +50 production in city, +1 happiness in continent

i'd lose the production boost, i dont see the connection.

Connection: see the comments about Hydraulic Despotism, and how these huge monuments actually helped the economy. Which reminds me - this should be another river only.

quote:
Cluny Abbey
requires: Theocracy, Cathedral in city
effect: free Monastery in every city, Monastery gives +25% production (Monastery cannot be built otherwise)

neutral on this one

Do you know much about the Cluny Abbey? Its a bit obscure since it was destroyed and thus isn't a tourist attraction and all that. But in the Middle Ages the Cluny Abbey was the largest church in the world, bigger than the Vatican. It was the headquarters of the Benedictine Monks, who established a network of Monasteries that became very effective economically. So much so, they grew so wealthy and powerful that there was eventually a big backlash.

I looked through history for an example like this, cos I'm thinking the Theocracy gvmt is going to be great for happiness, but very lousy for science, not great for production either. So this could modify those negatives a bit. Similar thinking of Das Kapital and Five Year Plan and Communism (kind of sucky gvmt gets good if you get the wonders that goes with it).

Note that this would expire before Industrialization, or else it would be too powerful (esp. if this and the Communist wonders were operating simultaneously).

quote:
Code of Hammurabi
requires: Empire, Courthouse in city
effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

This code was the basis of most civs, so I'd not make it gov specific.

Yeah, but you need an absolute ruler to force everyone into obeying something like this, initially.

quote:
Wild Goose Pagoda
requires: Empire, Silk, 6 Marketplaces
effect:+2 free advances

never heard of it

This is a pretty obscure thing. Its a building in Xian, China. Xian was the Chinese end of the Silk Road, and I went for this over having a Silk Road wonder, since its just a road. I believe it was the 600s AD, a Chinese Buddhist priest went down the Silk Road to gather knowledge about Buddhism. He ended up staying several decades in India, and came back to China with literally tons of books, which boosted knowledge not only of Buddhism, but also science and the outside world generally. The Emperor was so happy about this he built the Wild Goose Pagoda to house all the stuff the priest brought back, and it became a very important Buddhist shine (and still is).

So part of the thinking is to have something Silk/ Silk Road related (I love those resource requirements), and also trying to have more than just Europe/ US stuff.

quote:
Grand Canal
requires: Empire, coastal
effect: free Granaries in every city on continent

not sure of the correlation between a canal and free granaries

The Grand Canal was built (also around 600 AD I think, but it was rebuilt several times) to secure China's food supply. Basically, the south of China had all the food, and the capital (Peking) and other big towns up north suffered from periodic famines. So the canal supported a steady stream of ships carrying food for those towns. About as good a free granaries wonder example in real life as one could hope for, I think.

quote:
Forum
requires: Republic, 6 Courthouses
effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

in general, i'm against requiring too many of a building to get free ones. If we remove the gov dependency on Code of Hammurabi, this is a dup wonder.

I can see that. Then it should just be a Courthouse in that city, then. This is a dup wonder with gov prereq on purpose, so more than one civ could have this kind of thing (since we can't make it a Small Wonder). We might even want another for Monarchy and/or Theocracy! (In effect almost make it a small Wonder by having multiple, hopefully mutually exclusive versions).

quote:
Internet
requires: Democracy, 6 Public Schools
effect: free advances known by 2 other civs

dont tell china that they cant have the internet (they are #2 in the number of real life users)

My thinking here wasn't that only Democracies could have the Internet, but that only a Democracy could start such a thing. Once its out there, such a thing is impossible to stop (a number of gvmts, including China initially, tried), but a repressive gvmt wouldn't ever approve of the research to invent it.

But, thinking about this some more, I realized you can't have the Internet as a Great Wonder that only one civ benefits from. It really needs to be a Small Wonder, don't you think? Maybe Internet as small wonder (I can't think of a function as I'm not at home, but something science related) , and then Silicon Valley as a Great Wonder giving trade requiring the Internet as a prereq. WHat do you think?

quote:
Supreme Court
requires: Democracy, 6 Police Stations
effect: Police Station in every city

How about this being MI6, or CIA, KGB, or FBI?

There already are so many wonders like that, from Intelligence Agency to Secret Service to Pentagon. It just gets confusing. Also, this is also a duplicate of the Secret Service wonder for Fascism, so I thought naming it Supreme Court could symbolically show the difference between those two types.

quote:
Kremlin
requires: Communism
effect: Walls in every city on continent

Iron Curtain?

I already have a good Kremlin picture!

quote:
Das Kapital
requires: Communism, Mill in city
effect: Mill in every city

correlation?

I was thinking this would be a good wonder for a civ that has fallen back on production (rapid industrialization being a key Communist goal). So I initially thought a Factory in every city, but decided that was too powerful. Mill is only half that, and this would be a cool thing in that it could put Mills in towns that otherwise wouldn't have them (no river), so in theory the Communist gov. could leap ahead in production.

quote:
Krupp Works
requires: Fascism, Coal, Iron, Oil, Factory in city
effect: Barracks in every city

As i understood it, krupp was an industrial complex.

Yes, and we can have it boost production in the city is it built in some, too. But it was essentialy a military industrial complex (the Krupps got started centuries earlier as artillery manufacturers), and the industrial heart of Hitler's war machine. The superior weaponry they made gave Germany's new soldiers a leg up. The best fit I could think of for a Barracks - Fascist connection.

quote:
Nuremberg Rallies
requires: Fascism
effect: +2 happiness in every city on continent

: rallies dont have lasting effects for millenias

If you assume this wonder couldn't be made till 1900s and the game ends in 2000, then you don't worry about millenias. In fact, we may want to boost some of the 1900s wonders for that reason (short duration).

----

Thanks for all the specific comments. However, I would also like to hear some "big picture" comments. For instance, are this many new wonders too many? How many is too many? What do you think generally of the "more wonders but tough requirements to build them" concept? Do you want the City State gvmt in the game or not?

What about the religious type civ switching without anarchy problem? I think having more wonders expire could help (so benefits don't multiply, for instance seeking out every production wonder and becoming a production monster), but it still would be a powerful feature.

I say we quickly resolve which wonders to include, and also which improvements and units, and have a rough idea what they do. We can hone and playtest later. But have that stuff first, and then when you make the tech tree you can factor all this in, in determining which techs to include and their relationships.

Next post, I'll work on getting the quote thing down .

	10-05-2002 05:07									#59
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Matt,
Regarding units, I already put forth my ideas on which units to add in an earlier post. I didn't really get a lot of comments/ questions/ counter suggestions about that. I still stand by that list, which is based on a lot of research. If you want more details on what I mean by certain units, why I think any unit is worthy or unworthy, or the time/tech for it, or rough stats, I'd be happy to explain. For stats though, I'd wait till AW puts forth his new unit strength system (which I'm a little unclear on - are you changing hitpoints, attack/defense, or both?) to fit those into that.

We could also try to figure out which units to add we actually have graphics for (as I said before, I'd rather do without, at least for the time being, than have two units share the same graphic), and then start adding them. Things like the Crossbowman or Horse Archer should be non controversial, and good to go right now.

We also never did talk about unique units. I was thinking a second unique unit for each civ would be cool (though the graphics for that may be a long time coming, and you wouldn't want to give a second to some civs and not others). If people liked that idea, I think it would be better to have the second be a different time period than the first. For instance, don't have both German units be from WW2 - the Germans have been around since Roman times. For some civs like the Zulus, that could be hard though, since they never really did have a second time period!

I know you're big on naval - do you have any specific suggestions? I would agree to adding a Cruiser, and post WW2 replacements for Carrier, Destroyer, etc, and maybe a Dreadnaught. But beyond that I think stuff like Frigate is too detailed for Civ3's (non-scenario) level of abstraction.

	10-05-2002 05:44									#60
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You could be right, Harlan, but there's a sweet frigate graphic up at Civfanatics. Look up Perry-Class, Dark Sheer.

Matt