03-05-2002 01:14									#31
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Hey, here's an idea, maybe we should just call the whole thing off!

[/quite serious]

	03-05-2002 01:14									#32
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Revolution, French Naval War, and the Barbary Pirates War. Also, to a short extent, the current War on Terror.

	03-05-2002 01:16									#33
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Revolution, French Naval War, and the Barbary Pirates War. Also, to a short extent, the current War on Terror.

French Naval War? What was that one about?

BTW, what about the War of 1812?

	03-05-2002 01:16									#34
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morals are things we humans invented so more of us could live together peacefully , and respecting each other , thus another example of evolution at work.

	03-05-2002 01:18									#35
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No damn it Dal it was given to us by GOD I tell you, you little evolution punk!

	03-05-2002 01:21									#36
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quote: French Naval War? What was that one about?

Basically, French warships were seizing US merchentmen.

quote: BTW, what about the War of 1812?

Well, impressment was a valid casus belli, but if the hawks in Congress had calmed down, the situation would have adequately resolved through diplomacy. Hence I oppose the war because it could and should have been prevented.

	03-05-2002 01:25									#37
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Kropo : actually, there are these two types that I tend to bump into that are trying to preach me the existance of god. They're quite relentless. when I try to change it into an apolyton-like discussion , they steer clear , and start bullshitting. They have nice personalities, but they try to assimilate me.

so , I am not very amused

	03-05-2002 02:10									#38
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I'm with Orange on this one... why do it at all? And I've gotta wonder exactly what the plan is for after the invasion/deposing of Saddam.

-Arrian

	03-05-2002 02:13									#39
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Run as fast as you can Dal. Seeming nice is their main way to attract people and turn them into zombies!

	03-05-2002 02:20									#40
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don't worry. once they confronted me with the 'watch-in-the-forest' argument I knew I was safe.

	03-05-2002 02:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No. Both Turkey and Iraq are sovereign states - we have no business taking land from either of them, or the moral authority.

very simple

Iraq would end being a soverign state

Jon Miller

	03-05-2002 02:34									#42
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quote: US officials have said several things recently regarding Iraq, the implication being there are plans in the works to invade and oust Saddam.

This won't happen for another year or so (according to Time). Or, at least, not before the pal-israel crisis is resolved.

	03-05-2002 02:35									#43
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quote: 'watch-in-the-forest' argument

Year, you gotta love that one

	03-05-2002 02:36									#44
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Oh according to Time, well then turn of the alarm. No chance Time will write something that's total BS

	03-05-2002 02:38									#45
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An attack via the small coastal strip of Iraq seems most likely, since the Americans will want lots of pictures of carriers and their other toys. Plus, a coastal invasion will be a relatively new spectacle for the eyes of the world. Not like more fighting in drab old mountains.

Predictions:

A pitiful British contingent.

Saddam will allow the inspectors in at the last minute; US will invade anyway, casus belli or not.

Fewer cruise missiles and stealth bombers, more B-52s.

More daft military euphimisms will appear.

A stealth aircraft will be shot down.

	03-05-2002 02:42									#46
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quote: This won't happen for another year

The Americans maybe need a pause bevor they start the next war ... regaining strength for their patriotism .. after all they have to wave tons of flags and stuff

	03-05-2002 02:51									#47
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The Americans maybe need a pause bevor they start the next war ...

No they need to time the next war with the elections. After all it would be unpatriotic not to vote for your wartime president

	03-05-2002 03:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Which one's do you support?

David what would your opinion be on the War of Northern Aggression?

What about the many wars fought against the Indians?

Ned

	03-05-2002 03:06									#49
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The problem we have is not so much with Saddam, but with the Turks and the Kurds. The Turks will insist that Kurds not be set free or instead made part of Turkey. This is really inconsistent with one of our war aims, to liberate the Kurds.

Ned

	03-05-2002 03:07									#50
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The war is scheduled for late November. Ned

	03-05-2002 03:09									#51
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quote: Or, at least, not before the pal-israel crisis is resolved.

So the US won't invade in this millenium?

	03-05-2002 03:09									#52
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quote: David what would your opinion be on the War of Northern Aggression?

David has repeatedly said that the South had the right to secede, and the War of Northern Aggression should not have been fought.

	03-05-2002 03:11									#53
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Which is at least consistant with his views that the Revolutionary war was justified.

	03-05-2002 03:13									#54
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Yup

	03-05-2002 03:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Revolution, French Naval War, and the Barbary Pirates War. Also, to a short extent, the current War on Terror.

So, Japan attacks Pearl Harbor and Germany declares war on us. You, David Floyd, president, surrender? Is that your position?

Ned

	03-05-2002 03:34									#56
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No, prior to that I don't invite either declaration by sinking German UBoats or putting an embargo on Japan.

	03-05-2002 03:37									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt Before starting Desert Storm II, the American government will have some explaining to do. The fact that Iraq is an ugly dictatorship is hardly reason enough to mount a massive attack. I can see two valid reasons to oust Saddam: 1) Iraq supports al-Qaeda on the same scale as the Taleban did; 2) Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, or is about to get them. So far I haven't seen proof of either. Before George W goes ahead with his new war, he should disclose parts of the intelligence he has (intelligence as in CIA, not as in IQ ) and present ample evidence to the American people and America's allies. 2) seems very likely, 1) seems less likely, considering Saddam is a secular leader, not an Islamist.

Why is explaining to the Dutch government required of the U.S.? We are allies in Europe. Iraq is in the ME. The Dutch have no obvious interests there except to trust their friend the United States vs. a maniac dictator like Saddam. We would welcome Dutch support but not its whining interference.

Ned

	03-05-2002 03:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt I can see two valid reasons to oust Saddam: 1) Iraq supports al-Qaeda on the same scale as the Taleban did; 2) Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, or is about to get them. So far I haven't seen proof of either. 2) seems very likely, 1) seems less likely, considering Saddam is a secular leader, not an Islamist.

1) Despite attempts by the State Department to link them, everything is pointing to non-cooperation between the two. Given that the Baathists are seqular, I highly doubt al-Qaeda would accept any support from them. Al-qaeda recieved (and likely still receives) most of its support from the Saudis and the Pakistanis, and other extremely right-wing, Sunni Islamist regimes. Sudan did support them (and may still do so under the table) but seems to have quit well before the US bombed them in '98.

2) According to the last weapons inspector, the UN found and destroyed all WoMDs and delivery mechanisms for such that the Iraqis had. The non-compliance that they thought the Iraqis were engaging in turns out to have been security information on the where-abouts of Hussein. Given that the CIA was using the UN team as an info gathering source, the Iraqis were rather paranoid about turning over this last little bit of info, lest Hussein be assassinated by the US.

There will be no independent Kurdistan carved from Iraq. The US is flattly against such an outcome, due to its tight alliance with Turkey. The Kurds today, like in Desert Storm, are being used as a rationalisation for war, but will be screwed over once again at the end of the war.

Kuwait will likely allow the US to base on its soil, despite demonstrations. It still hates Hussein and wants to see Iraq destroyed. The US can also hit from the Persian Gulf, as well as Turkey.

	03-05-2002 03:48									#59
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You know the Dutch have this bad habit to care about world-peace

	03-05-2002 04:01									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 You know the Dutch have this bad habit to care about world-peace

And, as I said, you should trust us.

Besides, I am absolutely certain that we will fully explain our reasons to you and ever other member of Nato. We will seek your support and perhaps your assistance as well.

Ned