12-05-2002 17:16									#61
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quote: The Israelis didn't storm the church because they were paying lip service to the right of sanctuary on holy ground...

Has this right ever applied to armed men? Isn't the general custom to leave your weapons at the door? And does any country allow people wanted for crimes to stay in a Church based on this "right of sanctuary?"

	12-05-2002 17:17									#62
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yes.

the church/temple asylum. it is respected.


the priests cannot turn out anyone.

they have a moral obligation though to make him see what he's done, repent and turn himself in

	12-05-2002 19:34									#63
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Talk about clutching at straws...

quote: One priest complained the foreigners had desecrated the church by smoking and drinking alcohol.

As Krazy says, the 'foreigners' appear to be the Westerners who just recently entered the compound...

quote: Reporters saw a cupboard filled with food — more than 20 bags of lentils and rice, cans of beans and cooking oil. For extended periods during the siege, the gunmen had said food was running low and those inside subsisted on one meal a day. Some said they had resorted to making soup from lemon leaves growing in the courtyard. It was not clear whether those accounts were misleading, or whether Israel sent in more food in the last days.

I'd believe the monks in this case, also when under a siege you ration - as in don't eat everything at once because you don't know when the siege will be lifted! Therefore it is reasonable to presume that alternative food sources such as lemon leaf soup were procured in order to extend the rations. When Stalingrad fell to the Russians, although the German soldiers had been starving for weeks - huge stockpiles of food still remained.

quote: Israeli police and soldiers swept the church and said they found 40 explosive devices, several booby-trapped.

I tend to believe Bugs' version...

At the end of the day the 'evil Palestinian terrorist baby-eating scum' seemed very respectful of the religion and wellbeing of their hosts left the place surprisingly undamaged...

As for desecration etc. what about shooting people to death on holy ground!!??? Something that the Israelis were definitely guilty of!

	12-05-2002 22:29									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Has this right ever applied to armed men?

Yes, quite often.

quote: Isn't the general custom to leave your weapons at the door?

Not if you're not sure the guys on the other side aren't going to rush you.

quote: And does any country allow people wanted for crimes to stay in a Church based on this "right of sanctuary?"

Not indefinitely, usually. Provides a bit of an extra barrier to violent action, though. Natan, the only real terrorists in Canada's history were exiled, and some of them are back in Canada today as politicians. Israel will just have to deal with not being able to prosecute the guys it wanted to.

	14-05-2002 00:07									#65
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I had an interview with a teacher of mine. He is a leftist. A history teacher. He serves in the intelligence - field intelligence.

He was drafted when the operation started, and he served for several weeks in Bethlehem.

He was overseeing the whole territory from special locations.

He said that all fires in the compound generated from the inside.

	14-05-2002 00:09									#66
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this is not a troll, luv :-)

What about people in the church being shot by Israeli snipers? Were they attacking the ground forces or anything?

	14-05-2002 01:17									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I had an interview with a teacher of mine. He is a leftist. A history teacher. He serves in the intelligence - field intelligence. He was drafted when the operation started, and he served for several weeks in Bethlehem. He was overseeing the whole territory from special locations. He said that all fires in the compound generated from the inside.

Without disparaging the credentials of your teacher, I have to point out that burning part of the complex, and losing a potential stronghold as well as potentially endangering their own lives in the process (through spread of fire and by provoking storming action by the Israeli soldiers) makes no sense whatsoever.

Your teacher's intelligence credentials will back that up. Personally, I think it was entirely accidental and I'm not bothered as to which side goofed.

	14-05-2002 01:25									#68
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The right of sanctuary was, I believe, abolished during the so-called "Age of Reason".

	14-05-2002 01:29									#69
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Only legally. If people respect it, it can still be claimed as a right. Put it this way, the Israeli forces thought long and hard because of it.

	14-05-2002 01:37									#70
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They didn't light up places close to them. Only in the yard.
They did it every time they thought the Israelis would storm.

Why?

Because then it was immediately broadcasted live on the news, and Israel wouldn't storm the church while it's live on CNN.


The fire inside was probably a mistake.


As far as sniping goes, yes, they only shot at people who were either clearly armed, or shooting at them.

where there was no clear target, they refrained from shooting.

also, they had to clear with the command before shooting.

he said that while it's impossible to make sure that soldiers fired only by the rules, those were the rules, and they were made very clear all the time.

	14-05-2002 01:39									#71
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They did shoot civilians as well, though.....

	14-05-2002 02:09									#72
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quote: Only legally. If people respect it, it can still be claimed as a right. Put it this way, the Israeli forces thought long and hard because of it.

That wasn't the issue - the issue was that a firefight in a sacred church is really nasty, especially if you burn the whole thing down. I don't think Israel would have thought twice about going after suspected terrorists hiding in another Church or a Mosque.

	14-05-2002 02:12									#73
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Maybe not. It'd figure these darn Palestinians would run into the Church of the Nativity to hide.

	14-05-2002 02:15									#74
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BFB - where? they targeted armed men. sometimes you miss.

i shot at targets from 150 feet using a carbine M16. It's tough to hit the target.


Also, when reporters and international forces reprot that IDF shot at them - they're saying nonsense.

IDF was shooting near them and over them, to try and make them go away. If we wanted to hit them, from such a short range - we would have.

	14-05-2002 02:16									#75
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Btw, he told me that IDF planned to take that church in advance, expecting such a thing. After all - it isn't a first time they flee into it.

But then IDF decided that conquering it would be a worse PR move.

	14-05-2002 02:31									#76
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It is unfortunate that this happened. On a good note, the church emerged with little permanent damage at least.

	14-05-2002 03:54									#77
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Desecration of the Church of Nativity Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny It never ceases to amaze me how posters on this forum consistently fail to demonstrate any inclination to look behind the bare reporting and try to establish what's really going on. A small market town could be powered by the jerking knees on both sides of the argument over the ME issue. Now watch and be dazzled, because I'm going to attempt to reconstruct the events as dispassionately as I can. To start....what has been established? 1- Fleeing Palestinian gunmen take refuge in Church of nativity. 2- Israeli troops lay siege to the Church. 3- Tense stand-off. A few of the Palestinians (and two civilians) are shot by Israeli snipers during the 39 day siege. 4- Siege ends. Israeli reports state discovery of 40 explosive devices "some of them booby-trapped". The location of the devices was provided by the Christian Priests (source- BBC). The Israeli sources are being coy over the nature of the devices, though I'd assume they're probably not discarded party poppers. The fact that a distinction is drawn between bobby-traps and other devices leads me to suspect that there were a small number of crude booby-traps, plus other items (possibly grenades) that were merely discarded. First question- why were the bombs planted? I don't know about anyone else, but I was convinced that the Church would be stormed by the Israelis in view of the baying about the "most wanted" list. Had I been one of the Palestinians, I'd have been convinced that I didn't have long to live. Under those circumstances, would I have made booby-traps? You bet your arse. This is not a game of nicey-touchy-huggy-huggy. It's a war zone. I'd have set booby-traps in an attempt to buy time, if nothing else. Seeing as I'd only brought in very limited supplies, the devices would probably have been small and crude (possibly cobbled together from bullets) but they'd have been enough to make the Israelis wary (and probably missing a hand or two). Second question- how did the Priests know about them? The first possiblity- heroic Christian Priests risk life and limb to spy on evil, baby-eating Pal scum, and heroically save gallant, lantern-jawed Israeli soldiers just in the nick of time. I call this "The Jerry Bruckheimer version" and will be appearing in cinemas soon. The second possibilty- The bombs never existed and were an invention by the evil, Zionist oppressor scum, proved by the fact that the Israelis are refusing to elaborate. I call this "The detached from reality conspiracy theory version" and it will be appearing at DarkConspiracy.com very soon. The third possibility.- The Palestinians are sharing the church with the Christian Priests. Blowing them up, along with one of the most sacred sites to Muslims, would be a catastrophic PR disaster for them. Even if you don't buy that angle, bear in mind that these guys already have a lot on their plates and probably have no wish to have bombs going off while they are there, risking their lives and be left washing bits of Priest's guts out of their hair. So they tell the Priests "OK- you're safe around most of the church, but don't go near those two cupboards over there or you'll be blown to buggery. If you want anything from them, ask and we'll get them for you.". At the end of the siege, the Pals get a partial PR victory, and the Priests can safely tell the soldiers where to find the bombs. I call this version "The one I think really happened." This is not Hollywood. There are no white hats and black hats so that Billy-Bob from Badgerpoke, Idaho knows who to cheer for without being troubled to give the matter any thought. I'm doing my best to view these events from an unbiased point of view, and I wish others would try do do likewise, rather than performing like one of Pavlov's pooches. So, all told, the "desecration" amounts to a few broken windows, cigarette butts and a lingering smell of wee. Given the circumstances, I think that's nothing short of miraculous. Don't you?

hmm, so you're saying that you're fine with the fact that the church was used as a "refuge" for fleeing palastinians in the first place? yeah, i guess in that case your rationalization is just dandy.

	14-05-2002 04:43									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Where is che? I'd like to get his opinion on the behavior of the peaceniks who rushed the church.

I avoid most ME threads these days. My opinion is that they were idiots. F*cking Americans always gotta be the center of attention. D'uh, this wasn't about them. Once they delivered their food and medicine, and checked out the scene inside the church, they should have left, so they wouldn't use up any food. Twits.

	14-05-2002 04:58									#79
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It's just a church, a building, a thing. It may be a thing held in great reverence, but is not more valuable than a single human life. Most of the gunmen, and some of the civilians would likely be dead now if they hadn't fled into the church. Some good came of it.

BTW, it's not necessarily the birth place of Christ. No one knows where that really was. Some tourism guys just decided it would be a good place to set up a church to get money from pilgrims.

	14-05-2002 08:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's just a church, a building, a thing. It may be a thing held in great reverence, but is not more valuable than a single human life.

You'll have to forgive me, che. When I made the comment I was feeling particularly trolly.

However, I highly doubt that the IDF was going to rush the Church. The attack, if any were to occur, would have come way before the human shields rushed the Church to put a strain on the rations of the people within. The people inside had had too much time to prepare defenses.

	14-05-2002 21:39									#81
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quote: Originally posted by morb hmm, so you're saying that you're fine with the fact that the church was used as a "refuge" for fleeing palastinians in the first place? yeah, i guess in that case your rationalization is just dandy.

Had I been in their position, I'd have done exactly the same. I like my skin as it is, and feel bullet-holes would not make me prettier. There was no better refuge available.

	14-05-2002 22:02									#82
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Were there any tourists in the place at the time it was seized? What happened to them? Were they released by the Palestinians or forced to stay. While priests might desire to stay with their beloved shrine, I'd find it difficult to believe that tourists would agree to stay if given the option to leave.

Don't forget about the Stockholm Syndrome.