13-05-2002 03:08									#61
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory no hitler was going to attack Yugo/greece anyway. Kesselring warned him about RAF intervention from Yugoslavia. oh and about Italy, I was trolling Italy never beat anyone in ww2

If italy had been successful in their invasion of Greece, Hitler could have invaded Russia sooner. Germany wouldn't be needed to fight in Greece.

	13-05-2002 04:15									#62
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud If italy had been successful in their invasion of Greece, Hitler could have invaded Russia sooner. Germany wouldn't be needed to fight in Greece.

That is true, but Hitler's troops were set up and ready to kick ass on the border for 3 weeks prior to barbarossa. So, that arguement doesnt really hold water. He could of attacked earlier...but didnt think the winter would have been an issue.

And the Russians didnt really get the upperhand till 43'. 41 was a disaster, 42 was mostly a disaster, except stalingrad, and 43 the germans were still kickin ass in Khar'kov Salient. They fumbled at kursk.

	13-05-2002 07:29									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus At the time of the bombing, the Germans were pinned down in three main areas. (Afsluitdijk, Rotterdam, Utrecht I believe). A german paratroop operation in the west of Holland resulted in a familiar for the germans and the paras were pinned down as well (there goal was to take The Hague, but failed miserably).

Sorry, the Germans were never "pinned down" in the Netherlands. They halted for a day or so at one point to consolidate their advances and to allow the troops in the south time to turn towards Belgium. Let's face it, once they were at the gates of Rotterdam they pretty much had the whole country.

	13-05-2002 07:31									#64
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Suffering is listening to a German complain about the suffering they underwent in WWII.

Unless you're about to stipulate that every German civilian was complicit in the war crimes of the Nazis, then you'd have hard time justifying that the suffering of innocent civilians--whatever their nationality--during a war created by their politicians and generals is somehow qualitatively different from anyone elses. This is a surprisingly ignorant statement.

	13-05-2002 07:47									#65
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Boris, that's absolutely right.

For example, my teacher was saying how we were justified in flattening Dresden because the Germans were the "bad guys". Same thing with Japan and the atom bomb. And it didn't matter because we ended up giving Germany and Japan lots of money after the war. I, of course, casually pointed out to him that any amount of foreign aid isn't going to help the guy and his family who were incinerated when the shockwave ripped through their house.

To All, face it, war on civilians is murder and killing another country's innocents for the death of your own is NEVER justified.

Furthermore, it kind of pisses me off with the slight hint of pretentiousness with which SOME people say that the Germans just rolled over the Low Countries and other regions. Just because their smaller and don't have very powerful militaries doesn't mean they should be looked down upon. There's nothing wrong with choosing to be peaceful. BTW, Strangelove, this isn't directed toward you and your last post...

	13-05-2002 08:04									#66
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Some people say we were justified at Dresden because the German troops had been killing civilians first. I always look at people who say that funny and ask, "then how does that in any way make us the good guys?"

	13-05-2002 08:08									#67
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There are those days when I think America went into that war probably as decent as any nation up to that point could have been and came out worse than the people they had just beat.

	13-05-2002 08:08									#68
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I think a small nation with no means to militarily fend off the assault of a huge invading army has every right to acquiesce in order to protect the lives of its civilians. Hopefully they will resist under occupation in any way they can, though, rather than collaborating.

That being said, remember that in 1940 nobody had any idea what Hitler was going to do in terms of the Holocaust, so the full magnitude of occupation wasn't readily apparent. There was still a fairly pre-20th century mentality at work here.

	13-05-2002 08:12									#69
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 ok so we know about Russia we know about britain we know about the US (not european yes thank you) we know (or I know) about Greece Serbia yes Italy France yes what did the other european countries did? did they put up any fight?

I seem to recall the Germans did something during WWII.

	13-05-2002 08:18									#70
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I think that was a given.

	13-05-2002 08:34									#71
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Akka le Vil






Holland : tried to fight, but was caught by surprise and crushed.]
no , you all suddenly became German ( belgium joke ok )

Belgium : fought with determination. Though, the king capitulated some times after the country has been conquered, ordering to his 500 000 soldiers to surrender (this made him appear like a traitor among his own population, and he was then forced to abdicate after the war).

we hold them fot about 15 days, they(germans) expexted to go through here in about 2 to 3 days

as for the king, the nation was divided over this and we almost when to somekind of revolt( civil war). the north against the south

[/QUOTE

	13-05-2002 08:36									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GP Oh, we inflicted plenty of suffering on them. And they inflicted usffering on each other too...

It's okay; it's just that my 2nd favourite Eurotroll didn't bite on this one.

	13-05-2002 09:14									#73
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Your favorite is the little hairy Turkish tube steak?

	13-05-2002 09:14									#74
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Yup. The one with "more nicknames than Harry Belafonte".

	13-05-2002 16:48									#75
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Ireland was neutral during the 2nd World War, or "The Emergency" as it is sometimes reffered to by historians over here. Churchill made some overtures to Ireland about giving back the North if Ireland joined in on the Allied side, but de Valera didn't take the bait. Dublin was bombed a few times by German forces who had mistaken it for Belfast, the worst incident on the North Strand leaving 41 people dead.

Subscribing to the old Fenian dictum, "Englands difficulty is Irelands oppurtunity", there was an initial upsurge in IRA activity in Britain until the Irish government started a policy of internment of IRA suspects. Throughout the war, Ireland, although neutral remained sympathetic to the Allied cause, interning German airmen shot down, but allowing British pilots back across the borders. Large numbers of Irishmen volunteered to serve in the British army against the Nazi threat. De Valera did make a terrible faux pas at the end of the war though when he signed the book of condolences at the German Embassy for Hitler's death.

An interesting fact is that one of the most prominent members of Goebbels propaganda machine was an Irishman by the name of William Joyce. He specialized in anti-British propaganda and became known as Lord Haw-Haw for his polished accent. The British got hold of him at the end of the war and hanged him for treason, which was strange, since he wasn't even British.

	13-05-2002 21:58									#76
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IIRC the Rotterdam incident was a tragic mistake, Holland had basically surrendered and the German ground control tried to call the planes back but too late. Most dropped their bombs, but some did manage to pull away in time...

As for Belgium, IIRC the King became exasperated at the dithering by the British and French forces whilst his country was being destroyed. The Belgians put up a fierce resistance just as they did in WWI - if anyone should feel betrayed, it was the Belgians by the British and French...

I think all countries did what they felt they should at the time - no one had any inkling of just what Hitler was about to unlease on the World...

	13-05-2002 23:06									#77
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KH, I didn't know I'm one of your favourites

	13-05-2002 23:53									#78
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Churchill made some overtures to Ireland about giving back the North if Ireland joined in on the Allied side, but de Valera didn't take the bait.

There is no way Churchill would give N. Ireland to
the Irish republic. It guarded the inlet to the Mersey & the
Clyde were all the Atlantic shipping came into Britain. If your
going to quote Churchill try reading his memoirs, instead of your Fenian historians.

Chruchill had more foresight than that, he was P.O. ed
at parliment for giving up the Irish Naval bases (Cork) before
the war, because he knew de Valera would be happly to watch
Britain starve.

quote: Originally posted by our_man An interesting fact is that one of the most prominent members of Goebbels propaganda machine was an Irishman by the name of William Joyce. He specialized in anti-British propaganda and became known as Lord Haw-Haw for his polished accent. The British got hold of him at the end of the war and hanged him for treason, which was strange, since he wasn't even British.

If he used a British passport, that is enough to convict him.
(A lot of Republician Irish did use British Passports in the 30s-40s)

	14-05-2002 00:49									#79
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I don't know if this has been posted (Can't be Arsed looking at all 3 pages)

Poland: Attacked from 2 sides. Free Polish Government established in London. Free polish Armed forces set up. Service men begin making their way to Allied countries( Including my Grandad). Polish Mathamatitions (SP?) pass on what they Know about ENIGMA.
Polish Free Army is involved in a few big battles (the taking of Monty Cassino, My GD fought there. Polish paras at Arnhem etc)

	14-05-2002 00:53									#80
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the Poles thought they could beat us. wrong thought. and nowadays they claim they only lost because our guys were backed by the commies. typical.

	14-05-2002 01:02									#81
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Italia wasn't very active during WWII. One of the rare Italian victory was against France which army was already destroyed by Germany : Italian air planes shot on civilians who were on the roads fleeing german army.

One of my taunt was killed by an italian pilot while she was keeping sheeps. She was 9.

	14-05-2002 01:05									#82
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arse, wasn't that one... happens when soldiers get blinded by the ideology behind it all

	14-05-2002 03:37									#83
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Like to point out Ecuador supplied 25 soldiers and a Swiss Army Knife(tm).

	14-05-2002 07:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory That is true, but Hitler's troops were set up and ready to kick ass on the border for 3 weeks prior to barbarossa. So, that arguement doesnt really hold water. He could of attacked earlier...but didnt think the winter would have been an issue. And the Russians didnt really get the upperhand till 43'. 41 was a disaster, 42 was mostly a disaster, except stalingrad, and 43 the germans were still kickin ass in Khar'kov Salient. They fumbled at kursk.

In 42' Russians retook Kiev.

At the very least- the delay of the German offensive allowed the Allies time to prepare. The germans wasted troops in Greece to hold down the partisans, etc.

	14-05-2002 07:33									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Unless you're about to stipulate that every German civilian was complicit in the war crimes of the Nazis

They all were, unless they actged against the regiem.
They knew what was happening- and they allowed it to happen.
Of course, yes, they thought the Jews were subhuman- but that still implicates tehem as murderers since Jews are of course, considered Humans.

Therfore the German citizens got what they deserved.

Dresden may not have been deserved, since it wasn't an industrial target, but nearly every other target deserved to be destroyed, leveled to the ground- killing all the enemy.

Then yes, the allies should have helped rebuild germany and good will. But during war desperate measures are needed in desperate times.

--
Side note: I fully support the dropping of BOTH atom bombs on Japan- they got what they deserved.

If I was Japanese, I would have supported spreading chemical/bio weapons in America- becasue america would have got what it deserved.
---
I am even handed, am i not?

	14-05-2002 07:45									#86
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No, DarkCloud, I'd say you were just disturbed. Tell me how a 6 yr old Japanese girl in Hiroshima got what she deserved.

	14-05-2002 07:52									#87
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The argument that civillians tacitly participate the acts of their regime simply by virtue of being its citizens is dangerous and disturbing.

	14-05-2002 08:57									#88
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I remember people (not you, Natan) making that argument about Afghans...

	14-05-2002 12:03									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber This man isn't European, but he was busy doing something that few others were doing in that era. Saving lives. And he did it in Europe. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Ho...t/sugihara.html

There is a memorial in Kaunas and a street named in Vilnius.

Attracts hordes of Japanese tourists with HUGE cameras.

	14-05-2002 12:16									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Dresden may not have been deserved, since it wasn't an industrial target, but nearly every other target deserved to be destroyed, leveled to the ground- killing all the enemy. Then yes, the allies should have helped rebuild germany and good will. But during war desperate measures are needed in desperate times.

135,000 dead. The greatest one-day slaughter in human history.