17-05-2002 00:06									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hearts of Iron is a WW2 grand strategy game including diplomacy and resources, that goes from 1936-46, and you can play any nation.

It's going Beta on June 1...

	17-05-2002 02:18									#32
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hearts of Iron is a WW2 grand strategy game including diplomacy and resources, that goes from 1936-46, and you can play any nation. It's going Beta on June 1...

there is no screenshots available...it seems that people will have to wait for E3 to take a look at it...

quote: Maybe we are indeed talking about different things, but I cannot agree, realism can limit gameplay seriously. In many games realism is reduced to a certain level so that there is less micromanagement and therefore more fun. Of course not every bit of realism results in a boring game but too much can do this.

Realism is only shown is serious games like wargames that are acctally simulating the gameplay...
Can you name me 1 game where an ounce of realism screwed the whole thing up??

	17-05-2002 10:27									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chronocrator Maybe we are indeed talking about different things, but I cannot agree, realism can limit gameplay seriously. In many games realism is reduced to a certain level so that there is less micromanagement and therefore more fun. Of course not every bit of realism results in a boring game but too much can do this.

I can't agree with that. Just because a game is more detailed doesn't mean it requires more micromangement.

Previously, when strategy games are limited to boards and cardboard counters, a lot of the information with regards to units, terrain, and whatnot needed to be abstracted. Combats involving opposing units were simplied into some sort of simple ratio with a die roll determining the outcome.

With the advent of computers this doesn't need to be the case anymore. Even in a game as primitive as Chris Crawford's 1941 units have both a combat strength and a muster strength, with a lot more details hidden beneath the surface.

In Steel Panthers tanks have all sorts of ratings, such as armour thickness and main gun penetration. None of these means more micromanagement.

	17-05-2002 16:14									#34
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Badly handled realism, like anything else, can make a game awful. Having an accurate supply model limiting how far and fast you can advance is not detrimental to the fun of a game. Having to designate supply routes, volumes and strategies point by point because the AI couldn't do it for you would be. So I think we can all agree that excessive micromanagement that shifts the focus away from the key game elements is bad (some people like micromanaging the important bits!)

Attempts to improve realism can lead to excessive micromanagement if done badly. So it boils down to effective game design. For instance in the upcoming Hearts of Iron I'm going to want to be able to focus the efforts of German research and production on certain key objectives, like designing and mass producing the Panther D and Me-262, rather than fiddling around with endless variations of Pz III, Pz IV etc. To me setting up those objectives would not be excessive realism or micromanagement. Ensuring the right goods got to the right factories every day would be - but I would have no objection to the computer making those assessments for me based upon raw material production and bombing damage.

	17-05-2002 16:37									#35
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Urban Ranger, I agree with you, if the AI handels everything in a good way and doesn't let the player do the micromanagement, more realism is fun, this is especially true for wargames. However if the AI isn't good enough to do the job (like maybe food-supply in a WW2 game, I don't know if this is a common feature or an extra realistic one) the entire game suffers from it.

	17-05-2002 17:14									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If a player is forced to tend to the details himself due to poor AI or bad game design, that's bad. That distracts from the game.


Grumbold,

"For instance in the upcoming Hearts of Iron I'm going to want to be able to focus the efforts of German research and production on certain key objectives, like designing and mass producing the Panther D and Me-262, rather than fiddling around with endless variations of Pz III, Pz IV etc."

I don't think you can design the Panther D's and Elefants without some prior technological improvements.

	17-05-2002 17:39									#37
	Put an end to popups!

True, but you don't have to keep retooling your factories to produce yet another variant. The Americans and Russians both took a basically sound design for each purpose and mass produced them like crazy, with a new model appearing once a year which still used mostly standard parts. The Germans suffered from new toy syndrome, presumably because of their leaders eccentricity, which meant so much diversification that production of even successful models was fatally slowed.

	18-05-2002 08:54									#38
	Suffering from ads?

I reckon the Germans liked to keep fine tuning a design all the time, instead of making big improvements all at once.

	20-05-2002 13:41									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Grumbold:

If you want to see how CWiF's is going (Computer World in Flames for the unknowing), then point that mouse cursor of yours at the following link and CLICK! Happy playing.

http://www.marinacci.com/Chris/

	20-05-2002 15:44									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Kautilya, weren't they working on a version of EU set in the imperialism age, as well?

	20-05-2002 22:37									#41
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

There is a group of people making an Age of Nationalism mod for EU2 that will cover from 1820 up to WW1. They've got a forum under the EU2 forums.

	20-05-2002 23:46									#42
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

"Kautilya, weren't they working on a version of EU set in the imperialism age, as well?"
Dunno. I don't remember seeing it on their website.

But there is something called Age of Nationalism which IIRC is a player-created mod which deals with the 19th century.
(Edit: Oops. I hadn't seen the post above)

Last edited by Kautilya on 20-05-2002 at 23:55

	21-05-2002 01:13									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yeah well, the age of nationalism coincides with the age of imperialism so that's what I was alluding to.
Maybe this mod will compel me to finally purchase EU2.

	22-05-2002 17:57									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dale Grumbold: If you want to see how CWiF's is going (Computer World in Flames for the unknowing), then point that mouse cursor of yours at the following link and CLICK! Happy playing. http://www.marinacci.com/Chris/

Interesting. Is Chris part of ADG or is the project no longer their baby?

	22-05-2002 23:54									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What is CWiF about?

	23-05-2002 01:16									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Colon What is CWiF about?

Computer World in Flames (CWiF) is a grand strategy game covering WW2 in it's entirety. The game covers the globe and the player get's to chose any of the major participants he wants. The player then commands his forces, land sea & air, and tries to rewrite history by conquering/liberating the world!

I check www.a-d-g.com.au religiously every day hoping to hear that the game is near completion. So far there hasn't been a peep about this game. "Grog want CWiF, grog want CWif, GROG WANT CWiF!"

Anyone out there have any info on the progress?

	23-05-2002 05:23									#47
	Suffering from ads?

Haupt:

Check the link I posted above. It's the official current BETA of CWiF.

Grumbold:

Yes, this is the official BETA that ADG has been advertising is in production.