15-05-2002 04:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Bella Hella yeah, i agree that it would be nice to have them keep their cultural identity. i haven't played for very long, but i seem to remember taking over a large zulu city and they were all wearing yellow. why can't they just change into green to indicate that they're my little peeps now?

That sounds like the best idea I've seen yet.....keep their identity for realistic (or anti-rascist, if you prefer) purposes, but change their clothing colour to make identification easier for gameplay purposes. The practically perfect compromise, IMHO.

	15-05-2002 04:44									#32
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Well I don't want any complex features. I would just like the little population points to retain their original graphic and name. So that if I am playing Japan, and I conquer a German city, even after they fully assimilate, the population graphic is German and it says "Content German Citizen" when I click on him. All else just stay the way it already is.

I would just really enjoy that, because I think it is fun to have diverse peoples, and build a society. It is totally a playing around thing, and has no real game effect, I know. But I think it is a lot of fun.

For instance, naming cities has no game effect, but I very much want to do it because it adds a lot of fun and personalization.

Its not a major thing with me, but since Captain made a thread about it, and I would like it, I posted that I agreed. It would probably not be high on my list of requests, but I think it would be very cool, and hopefully not a major effort. Ah but desires are unlimited ...

	15-05-2002 05:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Dude - people are more laid back up here...

Oh, gods, I can just see it now: An entire country so laid back that it decides not to show up for work for a few weeks. And then England (thinking that it is a general work stoppage) lets it go. Everyone! Quick! Freedom is only a vacation away!

	15-05-2002 05:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812

Woops! mad at me? Please let me know how I have offended you so that I can appologize...

	15-05-2002 06:12									#36
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The game is over-complicated as it is. I am quite sure that racism was one of the main considerations when they made the game. Is there an actual point, or should we just spam this thread until it gets closed?

	15-05-2002 06:33									#37
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Spam! Yah!

	15-05-2002 06:36									#38
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This is a good thread, me thinks.

I completely agree that conquered groups (in Civ3) should keep their ethnicity, at least in graphic, and at most.. keep it to the same degree as if they were JUST conquered.

I know, living in Quebec, that the french of Quebec have been under general "british" rule since 1760. Now, if my history class has been accurate at all, since 1867, Canada hasn't been british, sure... but the French speaking peoples of Quebec have never EVER been overjoyous to start learning english and "assimilating" themselves.

Actually, we have opposite laws. We have laws that are making more french speaking people every day. If you are immigrating to Quebec, and are still of the general schooling age, you MUST attend french school. And, funny enough, you might think that these laws were imposed while the seperatist government has been in charge, but no, they have been around even longer, emplaced by our non-seperatist party.

Oh, and to explain Quebec's seperatist party, since forever (but to be accurate, the 70's), we have had a dominant party trying to make Quebec its own country.

So, as for the "inevitable assimilation" present in CIV3... if it were trying for realism, it would be removed. Many ethnic groups thrive no matter where they go, and they never really fade away.

Heck, if I ever conquered half of Russia in a game of civ3, I wouldn't be opposed to having a nice sized Russian population hundreds of years later. It would make me feel good, and it would rule if they opposed wars that my people didn't.

To explain that... the general english population of Canada completely suported the Canadian troups in WW1 and 2... but the french population of Quebec abhored them.

Yeah, in my second conclusion, I don't think it's racist, but i WOULD like lasting ethnic ties.

	15-05-2002 06:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Captain that would be much better. it would assuage my guilty conscience for obliterating entire people groups from the face of the earth. I don't mind bringing them under my benevolent rule, just don't like the idea of "ethnic cleansing".

You have no problem with "obliterating entire people groups from the face of the earth," but you want someone to assuage your conscience.



But seriously now. You do get multi-ethnic cities. It's only after hundreds of years that they become assimilated. I take great pride in my multi-ethnic society. I do see cities homogenize over time, unfortunately, but that is a natural result of "globalization."

	15-05-2002 12:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot To explain that... the general english population of Canada completely suported the Canadian troups in WW1 and 2... but the french population of Quebec abhored them. Yeah, in my second conclusion, I don't think it's racist, but i WOULD like lasting ethnic ties.

Wait, please let me make sure that I have this right: The Quebequois were opposed to Canadian involvment in WWI and WWII, when those Canadian troops fought on the side of... the French?

If this is true, then I have a bit more insite to the uniformly low oppinon that the French have for Quebec...

	15-05-2002 12:55									#41
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is this PC thread a joke or was it meant to be serious? how come you do not object to e.g. 'razing cities' and other mass slaughters? starving population to death? sneak attacks? nuclear attacks? communism?

	15-05-2002 14:18									#42
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Just what we needed. . .

A Politically Correct race-baiting thread by some guy obsessed with "diversity". All we need now is Al Sharpton to post.

The Diversity nuts won't be happy until they turn America in a disparate, polyglot mess like the Balkans.

Diversity?? No thanks.

E Pluribus Unum - Out of Many ONE.

	15-05-2002 15:14									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle The Diversity nuts won't be happy until they turn America in a disparate, polyglot mess like the Balkans.

you racist

	15-05-2002 15:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew Cory Woops! mad at me? Please let me know how I have offended you so that I can appologize...

Well, there's a difference between laid-back-not-wanting-to-go-to-civil-war and laid-back-being-a-nation-of-slackers.

I suppose I should just let it go, but it did seem somewhat offensive.

	15-05-2002 15:46									#45
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Conquered people definitely need to maintain cultural ethnicity. I actually like to join captured workers to my cities so that there is a sense of multiculturalism. Being Australian, multiculturalism is what I'm used to, and it rocks.

Here's an idea. If people from one cultural group mix in with another, the next citizens should bear the controlling power's colour, but have some physical traits from the first group, then others from the other.

For example, my German forces conquer the Babylonian city of Nineveh. I send my own settlers/workers to join the city, so as to avoid a flip. After growth occurs, there could be a male who looks like an arab (as the Babylonians do in this game), yet has fair skin, from being of German heritage as well. A woman might look like a European, but have dark hair instead of blonde, and darker skin. Every now and then, there may be a pure German, or a pure Babylonian born into the city as well, both bearing the national colour as well.

Just a couple of examples, but I would definitely like to see the results of some cross-breeding if this system were to be implemented.

	15-05-2002 20:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Just what we needed. . . A Politically Correct race-baiting thread by some guy obsessed with "diversity". All we need now is Al Sharpton to post. The Diversity nuts won't be happy until they turn America in a disparate, polyglot mess like the Balkans. Diversity?? No thanks. E Pluribus Unum - Out of Many ONE.

America IS a disparate polyglot mess like the balkans. The difference is that the different etnic groups don´t declare war on each other

	15-05-2002 20:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Well, there's a difference between laid-back-not-wanting-to-go-to-civil-war and laid-back-being-a-nation-of-slackers. I suppose I should just let it go, but it did seem somewhat offensive.

Well, he is american. They are offensive by nature Hell, they can´t even make beer that doesn´t taste like...well it doesn´t taste like anything really. Not to mention the vile crap they call whiskey...

	15-05-2002 22:08									#48
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I think that doing a whole thread on this subject in an on-topic forum is definitely overkill. This small thing is just a mecanism for God's sake !

All in all, I'm all for the way it works now. On an abstraction point of view, the culture faces represent for me the integration of people in my culture. Still having other faces in my cities after centuries would mean that I utterly failed to overcome the ghettoisation of my civ, and that the people were not assimilated nor integrated nor accepted in my population.
For me, the faces represent my CULTURE, not my ETHNICITY. My culture accept these foreigner, and assimilate them. It does not mean that they become uniformized, it means that my culture was made more rich and they melted into.

Still, making such loud noise about such a small problem is somehow ridiculous.

	15-05-2002 22:12									#49
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I just want to say, that although I am for diversity, I am totally not for disunity. In fact, I would like much more unity than we have at present ...

I just mean I don't think diversity and unity have to be mutually exclusive ... I can see how they could tend to be, but I don't think they HAVE to be. You can be united on a higher level, yet appreciate diversity on a lower level.

About the Balkens, I would say they are not an example of diversity. Ethnic cleansing is an example of intolerance for people not like yourself, the opposite of diversity.

I do worry that multiculturalism can be divisive ... but I do not think there will ever be peace until all the little groups and divisions feel basically satisfied. In a way, I think things will need to be broken down to smaller parts, before they can be at peace and combine into larger wholes.

Just how I see it.

	15-05-2002 22:36									#50
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OK, the topic of the thread doesn't seem to appeal to most current posters so far ...

but that's not a fair reason to ridiculize the thread's starter.
Ridiculize is slightly exagerated, I admit, but Captain surely doesn't deserve some of the comments that were posted regarding his subject.

He just posted some thoughts.

If you remember correctly frequent Apoly users, Captain has also come up with some well considered other thoughts before.

So let's give him the respect he seems to have earned.

Fair?

Amen.

AJ

	15-05-2002 22:39									#51
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thanks to the people who liked my idea (a simple change of clothing color to indicate that the people are now part of your civilization).

another idea - the "race" of your people wouldn't be dependent of whether you're the english or the zulus, but rather on WHERE YOU ARE GEOGRAPHICALLY. if you start near the equator, your people would be more dark-skinned, etc. i often thought it was kind of ridiculous when i started off as the zulu all the way up north in the tundra, and my people still looked like they had lived in the sun for millions of years. geography often determines culture, and definitely has an effect on the way people look. we adapt to our surroundings.

just a little food for thought...

	15-05-2002 22:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Well, there's a difference between laid-back-not-wanting-to-go-to-civil-war and laid-back-being-a-nation-of-slackers. I suppose I should just let it go, but it did seem somewhat offensive.

Right. I thought that might be the problem. I do appologize for my insensitivity. Let me further clarify that I in no way ment to imply that you are slackers, or work less hard than anyone else.

I should mention that as a Californian, we get the same rap (though how we could be the 5th largest economy in the world and full of slackers is beyond me).

Let me just say that when the phrase "laid back" was mentioned, the immediate mental immage I had was of a history textbook written about 500 years from now talking about the "great brittish mistake" that lost them the last bit of their empire. The immage was one of scottland lazing about on the couch instead of going to work. I didn't mean to imply that this would ever happen, or that the scotts were too lazy to work, but the immage was funny, and I tried to pass it along...

	15-05-2002 22:45									#53
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ah it's cool

	15-05-2002 22:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Well, he is american. They are offensive by nature Hell, they can´t even make beer that doesn´t taste like...well it doesn´t taste like anything really. Not to mention the vile crap they call whiskey...

Oh yeah? Well, your country of origion is no good. And you mispronounce the letter "z". *grin*

	16-05-2002 01:13									#55
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This is just my two sense, but maybe the firaxian world is one where people don't see the racial differences around them and thus interbreed making a uniform people. You could say infact that the presence of multiple races (over very extended periods of time) show an integrated system of segregation with in the society if only at the social level (people A wont have children with people B). Anyway what does race matter, everything should be based on your ability to perform. My great alma mater, the univeristy of Michigan just shot down this concept of equality by negating the constitution because they believe that diversity (race-wise) helps people understand the world. Do we really need the govenment telling us there are differences among us?

	16-05-2002 01:20									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew Cory Oh yeah? Well, your country of origion is no good. And you mispronounce the letter "z". *grin*

Hey, Sweden rules! And what´s wrong with "zäta"? Sounds better than "zed"

	16-05-2002 01:23									#57
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Just to post on topic. IMO Captain seems to have waay to much free time on his hands...

	16-05-2002 01:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Hey, Sweden rules! And what´s wrong with "zäta"? Sounds better than "zed"

Actualy, I assumed you were from an English speaking country, of which all but one use the letter "zed". I am from America, where we use the more propper "zee"...

	16-05-2002 01:26									#59
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quote: Originally posted by wase This is just my two sense, but maybe the firaxian world is one where people don't see the racial differences around them and thus interbreed making a uniform people. You could say infact that the presence of multiple races (over very extended periods of time) show an integrated system of segregation with in the society if only at the social level (people A wont have children with people B). Anyway what does race matter, everything should be based on your ability to perform.

That was exactly my point in my previous post.

	16-05-2002 01:31									#60
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Sorry bro, I didn't read every post. But its good to see we are in agreement.