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Mathphysto
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East Brunswick, NJ, USA
May 2001
time: 05:12
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My picks:
Great Ancient Civs:
Egyptians
Indians
Chinese
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Mayans (the Greece of the Ancient Americas)
Great Renaissance/Industrial Civs:
England
France
Spain
Mongols
Byzantines (Constantinople was the light of the Western World during the Dark Ages)
Great Modern Civs:
Americans
Russians
Japanese
Germans
Now just try and tell me that the bleeding Celts, or Apaches, or Vikings should be on here, and I'll tell you a little something. None of them affected the course of human history on so grand a scale as any of the civs I listed. The Apaches were just another name on a long list of victims of disease and greed. The Viking raids didn't last that long, didn't afflict many people, and they eventually settled down and were assimilated into the British culture. And the Celts had their butts whooped on their own turf just like so many other cultures around the world. One could make a better argument for the Gauls or Huns as being significant in history (their impact in the early Dark Ages on the rise to power of the Roman Catholic Church was immense), but they still lacked the longevity and magnitude of the other civs on my list. I'll put them on my list of the top five alternate civs:
Huns
Gauls
Carthaginians (I was tempted to put the Phoenicians instead, but they were really just Mediterranean middle men, and made money doing so)
Ottomans (major players before WWI)
Muslims (not really a civ, but Mohammed's Jihad was very crucial to history)
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Mathphysto
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East Brunswick, NJ, USA
May 2001
time: 05:12
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Antonios - there has been some speculation that the Phoenicians may have made it to South America around 300 BC, if I remember correctly. But I have never ever heard anything about Greeks sailing to the New World!!
And what is this about Greek pyramids? If you're talking about building square tetrahedrons out of stone, I'm sure Greeks weren't the first. It's so common a symbol across all cultures that I'm sure its origin predates the Greek or even Mycenean cultures - but I may be wrong about that.
And Greeks weren't the first to appreciate thinking: Indians had developed greater mathematics and architecture that even the Greeks never discovered, and provided much of the basis for science and philosophy in Persia and Greece. It's just that the Greeks killed the Persians, and the Indians suffered from isolation, so couldn't directly impact the Western world. So from the modern Westerner's point of view, Greek science and culture is incorrectly seen as the first to appreciate the power of thought.
This isn't to say that the Greeks didn't have a magnificent science and culture, merely that it wasn't the first, or even necessarily the best of its day.
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If we're going by the criteria of (1) Massive area (2) actually having recognizable cities (3) Power of their time, then we have to have the Incas. There empire was huge (Equador to Chile, incl. Peru and Boliva), they were a terror to their neighbors and had recognizable cities, many of which like Cuzco are still cities today.
For that matter, the Turks or Ottomans have to be in. Huge, powerful, with contributions to science, philosophy, and cultural stuff.
And kick out the Mongols. Gengis led nomadic warriors (lacking recognizable cities). And Khubli tried so hard to be chinese, he might as well be considered a dynasty for game purposes.
Kick out the Sioux/Apache/etc. Again, no cities. For some strange reason, the native americans prone to building cities resided in the southwest (Anasazi/Pueblo). But the Aztecs pretty well cover this end of the continent.
Mali makes more sense than the Zulus. (this was the BIG medieval African power). Mansa Musa built a huge empire and destabilized the world gold market (which earned the greedy attention of those to the north of the Sahara . . . )
The Carthaginians were big, but other than being conquered by the Romans, I'm not sure there's much else to say.
Vikings? Lose them - see mongols above.
My revised list:
Must be in: Romans, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Indian, Incan, Aztec, British, French, Mali, Turks, Spaniards, Egyptian
Runner Ups (3 go in): Germans, Brazil, Cathaginians, Persians, Portugese, Japanese, Babylonian/Sumerian/Assyrian, Canadians (wild card), Argentina (wild card)
Should be out: Mongols, Zulus, Native Americans w/o cities, Vikings
And as I said before, later barbarians should be terrorists: Sendero, ETA, IRA, Michigan Freemen, even the ELF.
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Bereta_Eder
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Can we for a minute stop wishing and look at the facts as we know them by now?
SO
GREEKS ARE IN
AMERICANS ARE IN
GERMANS ARE IN
CHINESE ARE IN
ROMANS ARE IN
FRENCH ARE IN
RUSSIANS ARE IN
ZULUS ARE IN
Now, please fill in the rest ONLY if you know the specific screenshot and / or text by articles or the web site of Firaxis or anything else that tells you so.
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 13, 2001).]
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Pedrun
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Natal, RN, Brazil
May 2001
time: 05:12
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Paiktis22, Call the american British and change the Zulu. You just chose the civs for a European scenario.
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Bereta_Eder
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Thank you Tniem.
So we have:
GREEKS ARE IN
AMERICANS ARE IN
GERMANS ARE IN
CHINESE ARE IN
ROMANS ARE IN
FRENCH ARE IN
RUSSIANS ARE IN
ZULUS ARE IN
ENGLISH ARE IN
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Vrank Prins
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Haarlem, Netherlands
Sep 2000
time: 05:12
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Here's my list based on history
In order of chronological appearance.
- chinese
- indians
- egyptians
- mesopotamia (stands for babylonians/assyrians/sumerians/phunicians etc.)
- persians
- greeks (stands for minoians(crete)/mycenians/sparta/athens/hellenistic world of Alex.t.G.)
- romans
- arabians
- incans
- mongols
- aztecs (stands also for mayans, toltecs etc.)
- spain
- ottomans (turks) (günaydin bagdar !!!)
- english
- french
- americans
- japanese (stands for the asian western rim of the pacific)
I'm very persistent about the arabians. There role in history has always been and still is obscured in western writings because of the (one could say allmost traditional) rivalry and competition between the arabian and the european world over a very long period of time. But they really have been of great importance to development of all the world.
My guess is that the geographical spread on the map of CIV's will also be of importance. In that case I would drop the persians, the ottomans and french and replace them by the zulus, just to have a CIV deep down south in Africa), the russians to have a CIV in more-or-less Europe, and the timbuctuans (is that correct anglo ????? nowerdays Burkina Fasso) in the northwest of Africa.
If the vikings are in, then I think the portugese and the dutch ought to be in there as well, being important naval and trading CIV's too.
Last edited by Vrank Prins on 23-05-2001 at 17:10
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Vrank Prins
I'm very persistent about the arabians. There role in history has always been and still is obscured in western writings because of the (one could say allmost traditional) rivalry and competition between the arabian and the european world over a very long period of time. But they really have been of great importance to development of all the world. |
I have to agree again, the Ottomans/Arabs/Turks whatever must be included in Civ III.
quote:
If the vikings are in, then I think the portugese and the dutch ought to be in there as well, being important naval and trading CIV's too. |
Not sure you want to open up that can of worms. Where do you draw the line? Do you include the Portugese and Dutch for being traders and forget the Phoenicians/Carthaginians?
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Arator
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My ideal would be the following 32 civs (* indicates my TOP 16):
Ancient:
Egyptians
Babylonians
Persians
Romans
Carthagenians
Ancient/Medieval/Modern:
Israelis*
Greeks*
Celts*
Germans*
Chinese*
Indians*
Medieval:
Vikings
Mongols
Aztecs
Incans
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Medieval/Modern:
Arabs*
Turks
English*
Spanish*
Portuguese
French*
Dutch
Danish
Russians*
Polynesians
Zulus*
Austro-Hungarians
Italians
Japanese*
Modern:
Iroquois*
Americans (with a "Yankee only" toggle)*
Confederates*
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mathphysto
...And the Celts had their butts whooped on their own turf just like so many other cultures around the world. One could make a better argument for the Gauls or Huns as being significant in history
Carthaginians (I was tempted to put the Phoenicians instead, but they were really just Mediterranean middle men, and made money doing so)
Muslims (not really a civ, but Mohammed's Jihad was very crucial to history)
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Umm... Gauls were Celts, but with a Latin name. Awfully hard to separate them, as they were one...
The Phoenicians, who spun off from the "Minoan" Cretans, actually settled Carthage (Kart-Hadesh) and other cities that later became the Carthaginians. Same people, different time periods and names...
Muslims (do you mean Arabs?) not a civ?! Read the news, you might notice that they are gargantuan on the world scale, have impacted history is ways only dreamable by many of the popularly listed european civs, were at the forefront of intellectual developments for centuries (altho this last has languished in our time somewhat).
Sorry, thought I ought to point this out...
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Umm... Gauls were Celts, but with a Latin name. Awfully hard to separate them, as they were one...
The Phoenicians, who spun off from the "Minoan" Cretans, actually settled Carthage (Kart-Hadesh) and other cities that later became the Carthaginians. Same people, different time periods and names...
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correct that phoenicians settled Carthage.
incorrect that phoeniecians were Minoans.
Phoenicians were semites, canaanites in particular. As, essentially were hebrews, who share language and culture with the canaanite/phoenicians, except for hebrews monotheist relgion. (and even there hebrew names for God come from the canaanite pantheon)
carthage is latinization of kart hadash - new town.
In modern Hebrew - kiryat hadash.
All (Hebrews, canaanites, phoenicians,) were apparently descended from early bronze age ugaritic/ebla civilization.
No one knows exactly who the minoans were - Cretan linear A has never been translated. Linear B is mycenaen greek, but thats later.
LOTM
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
No one knows exactly who the minoans were - Cretan linear A has never been translated. Linear B is mycenaen greek, but thats later.
LOTM |
You have it all mixed up LOTM.
If you want to go to the dawn of the birth of the greek nation mycenaeans and then later minoans (two different things) were two of the seven ancient races of greeks. (and later dorians, ionians etc etc)
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Vrank Prins
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Haarlem, Netherlands
Sep 2000
time: 05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wernazuma III
What would make 28civs, 7colors, 4 choices each. |
My guess is that the Firaxians are keeping the numder of CIV's (17 as I've understood from somewhere around here) down becuse of the work they have to do on the 3D diplomatic heralds.
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Vrank Prins
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Haarlem, Netherlands
Sep 2000
time: 05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by C. Gerhardt
I agree with Wernazuma III.
To add to this discussion, the Minoans where overrun by the Mycaeneans from Greece. |
But is this a relevant discussion. Do we really want them in ??
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Bereta_Eder
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I just looked at the dictionary: Mykines IS mycenaeans. SO sorry but you are certaintly wrong.
Minoan culture started somewhere between 1600 bc
Mycenaenas came to the scene anywhere between 3000 and 2000 bc.
Also, the seven ancient races of greeks include both. It's not my word of the greek ethnogenesis but the one of historians, mostly western historians for that matter.
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13-05-2001 08:42
)
Who do you call the Mycaeneans? Are we using the same word for two different people? The Mykines as is the word were living in the south east aegean islands long before the minoans. The first known people ever to inhabit the area, metriarchship, fertility statues etc etc?
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