25-05-2002 12:32									#61
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quote: Jasev, are we going to work together on a 1713 scenario or a 1763 scenario?

That would be fun. Long time ago I tried to do a spanish succession war scenario, but I wasn't able to find enoung information. Maybe this summer, when the classes (and the exams) are over...

	25-05-2002 18:14									#62
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I would enjoy that scen if finally is make

	25-05-2002 20:25									#63
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quote: Originally posted by jasev That was a wrong impression, Fiera. The war ended with a stalemate. Castilla won the civil war against aragón, but the french lost in Europe against the British and Dutch.

Yes, but as you said, it was the Borbon candidate who won the war in Spain. And Gibraltar is in Spain, right?

	25-05-2002 21:54									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera And Gibraltar is in Spain, right?

Is it? I thought we decided earlier in this thread that...

Just joking!

	25-05-2002 21:56									#65
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quote: Originally posted by jasev That would be fun. Long time ago I tried to do a spanish succession war scenario, but I wasn't able to find enoung information. Maybe this summer, when the classes (and the exams) are over...

Keep my name in your mind, I will start collecting some information, I know I have some in my books. Perhaps we will do it.

	26-05-2002 00:44									#66
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if somebody start it, oupss!! in fact i had started it dont doubt to ask me, I have some info about it

	27-05-2002 01:29									#67
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Los trabajos que hiciste antes son famosos. Esperamos este nuevo trabajo.

	27-05-2002 18:48									#68
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I say; give it to Spain, but only when Spain will return Ceuta, Melilla, Canarian Islands and those other little archipelago next to Maroccan shores to Marocco.
Aha! And when it gives independance to Catalonia, Galicia, and Basques.

	27-05-2002 19:31									#69
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The legal status of Ceuta and Melilla are VERY different of Gibraltar, but we can speak about it... the next century.

However, Canarian Islands IS a territory of Spain, and never has was part of Maroccan (BTW, Maroccan must return Sahara to saharauis people... )

quote: and those other little archipelago next to Maroccan shores to Marocco.

what?

	27-05-2002 21:26									#70
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quote: I say; give it to Spain, but only when Spain will return Ceuta, Melilla, Canarian Islands and those other little archipelago next to Maroccan shores to Marocco. Aha! And when it gives independance to Catalonia, Galicia, and Basques.

My friend, if you dont know anything about something, you are better off listening than speaking

	27-05-2002 21:55									#71
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Heresson is just trolling. It's his nature, he can't help it. So guys, just let it go, it's not worth your time.

	27-05-2002 21:56									#72
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OK, let's leave him in peace.
But there is always forms of dealing with trolls, don't you think so, Mr. Moderator?

	27-05-2002 22:05									#73
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This message is edited because the Mod has asked us to leave someone alone otherwise I would say a lot of "silly things" about someone who is really far away from Spain.

Last edited by Kramsib on 27-05-2002 at 23:05

	27-05-2002 22:54									#74
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yes, jasev, yes, but Heresson is also a friend, so I'm giving him a second chance

	28-05-2002 01:10									#75
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I am NOT getting anywhere near this one!

	28-05-2002 01:35									#76
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So for all the laymen around here, what IS the status of those Spanish enclaves in Morrocco (nevermind the Spanish islands and regions, that's a rather different issue, or better said, a more obviously different issue)?

Last time I heard, by the way, when the people of Gibraltar were asked in a referendum whether they wanted to join Spain, an overwhelming majority said NO. I'm only working from memory here, so maybe I'm wrong... But what's the point of any sort of discussion about who Gibraltar belongs to or should belong to, when none of the Gibraltarians want to join Spain?

	28-05-2002 01:45									#77
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It's not the people Merc, it's the territory. For all we care, they can continue being Brits for the rest of their lives.

	28-05-2002 01:51									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator So for all the laymen around here, what IS the status of those Spanish enclaves in Morrocco (nevermind the Spanish islands and regions, that's a rather different issue, or better said, a more obviously different issue)?

Ceuta and Melilla have the same status than another territory of Spain. He are 2 of the 'Comunidades Autonomas' (something like landers in Germany). Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain before Morrocco exits. There is not a treaty were Morroco give Spain the cities, becuase the countr didn't exists. But there is a teatry (a international teatry) about Gibraltar...

quote: Originally posted by Mercator Last time I heard, by the way, when the people of Gibraltar were asked in a referendum whether they wanted to join Spain, an overwhelming majority said NO. I'm only working from memory here, so maybe I'm wrong... But what's the point of any sort of discussion about who Gibraltar belongs to or should belong to, when none of the Gibraltarians want to join Spain?

Yes, It's true. The majority of people from Gilbartar doesn't desire be part of Spain... Although I'll be happy with Gribaltar part of Spain, my only ambition in this matter is that Gribaltar obey the international laws and the Uthrect Treaty of early 18th.

For example: the airport of Gribaltar is built on Spanish territory...

	28-05-2002 09:32									#79
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Juan Carlos should claim the Treaty of Utrect has been violated and is null, then he should claim the vaccant throne of France, jejeje!

	28-05-2002 12:03									#80
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The use of international treaties stays, does not concern the time that happens.

btw, the foreign office have declassified a secret document of the 60 on Gibraltar, a very interesting document: the political errors of the UK goverment about Gibraltar: constitution, political institucions and anothers...

	28-05-2002 12:07									#81
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First claim has been made several times. The repeated violations of the Treaty by the British constitutes the core of the Spanish position on this matter. What Yaroslav is true, they pushed away the border several times, last time to make room for an airport. The amazing thing is that the British have never acknowledged their treacherous tactics, despite there is plenty of info on that.

As to the second, Philip V already laid claim to the throne of France in the late 1700s. The current heir to the French throne is not Juan Carlos himself but a son of his late cousin, whose name fortunately I can't remember.

	28-05-2002 12:10									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator But what's the point of any sort of discussion about who Gibraltar belongs to or should belong to, when none of the Gibraltarians want to join Spain?

The territory is the important point, it's subject to international treaty. If the people who lives in Gibraltar now they want to be british, OK no problem, they are about 30,000 people...

But nobody asked the people who were wanted to be in 1704... or 60's

	28-05-2002 21:22									#83
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OK it's just a troll...
My views are a bit different. Still, that's something that You should think about. It's worth your time!

	28-05-2002 21:35									#84
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Aha! Post more in English.
And I'm sorry that it's "Everyone hates Heresson" again...

Last edited by Heresson on 28-05-2002 at 21:41

	29-05-2002 02:46									#85
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OK, I see... So Gibraltar is pretty much illegal property of the British.
Can't the Spanish officially give Gibraltar to the British, and make some sort of deal about the territory to prevent further expansion? After all, it's not very likely Spain will get it back anyway.

	29-05-2002 19:33									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator OK, I see... So Gibraltar is pretty much illegal property of the British. Can't the Spanish officially give Gibraltar to the British, and make some sort of deal about the territory to prevent further expansion?

Well, it was legal property of England, immoral perhaps, but legal. It has been suggested here that terms of the deal have been broken and the posession should be voided.

quote: Originally posted by Mercator After all, it's not very likely Spain will get it back anyway.

This is the EXACT opposite of what evryone in this forum wants to hear.

	29-05-2002 20:59									#87
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"It's not the people Merc, it's the territory. For all we care, they
can continue being Brits for the rest of their lives."

That's not the best way to convince someone that Gabal at-Tariq
should belong to Spain,.. After all You can say it about any other land, anyone can do it.

	29-05-2002 22:00									#88
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quote: This is the EXACT opposite of what evryone in this forum wants to hear.

That's what I suspected... If it were true this discussion probably wouldn't exist. The problem really is, somehow the Spanish and British find this little piece of rock very interesting, and both want it.

	29-05-2002 22:10									#89
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quote: The problem really is, somehow the Spanish and British find this little piece of rock very interesting, and both want it.

Really, there are still other people who want it as well. On of my friends, a non-civer but a genius when the subject of politics comes up, read the posts in this forum and e-mailed me:

quote: This brings to mind (Osama) bin Laden's remark in a videotape concerning the "tragedy of Andalusia." Just as there are (American) Southerners still "fighting" the (American) Civil War, there are Muslims who continue to consider Spain an eternal Islamic endowment ("waqf").

That makes three claimers by my count.

	29-05-2002 23:51									#90
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But isn't that rather a religious issue, not a political one. I imagine they only want Spain to become a Muslim state. While it could very well remain like it is now beside that. Not that this is very likely... And it's not really a Gibraltar issue then, but more generally a Spain issue.