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Veracitas
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Berkeley, California (or) Fairfax, Virginia
Jul 1999
time: 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by spicytimothy
Although unlike Poland it's beeb independent for an extremely long time (both China and Japan has numerous attempts to invade, but failed most of the time...) it has no unique culture. Period. The Korean language u see today is a relatively new usage bud off from Chinese. They hv been using Chinese characters of thousands of years. They fashion, language, economy, arcitechture, and basically culture in general is very Chinese. Recent years, there hv been more Japanese influence, but Japanese bud off from the Chinese n e ways...
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The Korean language is an enigma to modern scholars, and resembles Japanese (or, to be more accurate, I should say Japanese resembles Korean) more than anything. Case in point: Chinese is nasal whereas Korean is not. Korean is no closer to Chinese than English is to Gaelic.
As for the written language, most etymologists I have spoken with are fascinated by the modern Korean alphabet. It was a language actually invented by linguists, and its efficiency and ease of use (I could probably teach it--the sounds, at least, not necessarily the meaning--to anyone within a week) is a testament to that. As for use of Chinese characters, you are probably referring to Hanja. Yes, like Japanese Kanji, Koreans did use Chinese characters extensively for a time, but only as a way to write (just like people in Renaissance Europe would disdain the vernacular and write in Latin). Unlike the Japanese, the Koreans found the Chinese alphabet so unruly that they invented their own alphabet.
In any case, your statement that Korea has "no unique culture. Period" is a very offensive one, personally, and I am sure that applies to many others here. I do not believe that any country or culture--especially one as significant and ancient as Korea--should be degraded like that. Period.
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Veracitas
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Berkeley, California (or) Fairfax, Virginia
Jul 1999
time: 05:19
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I'm sorry for all these multiple posts, but I keep stumbling across spicytimothy's threads which are begging for some sort of retaliation. I also apologize for the vehement response to follow, but boy, you asked for it.
Dude, where the HELL are you getting your understanding of asian history?? where the hell are you pulling these assumptions from? You say a lot of "I think"s and "I doubt"s without any real hard fact. All you're really doing is applying your modern, Western, (mis)understanding of Korean history and culture to the facts and dismissing the truth because, of course, Koreans can't be more than dog-eating morons, can they?
quote:
As for the foreign currency reserves and import/export market, these only proves the economy of Korea (or more specifically South Korea) (BTW, I find it hard to believe that Korea is the 13th largest country... There's no Korea! Only South Korea and North Korea!) |
First off, you failed to finish your sentence: "As for...the economy of Korea..."...the economy of Korea what? Were you trying to make a statement, because I don't see one here. First, check these statistics from the World Bank here: http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GDP.pdf. You'll see that Korea actually has the 12th largest GDP now. Actually, to tell you the truth, it was number 11 before the IMF crisis. Pretty impressive for a country you claim doesn't exist, huh?
quote:
Biggest airport... Hyundai and Samsung... yeah, like... the richest man in the world lives in the US, and The largest dam will be completed soon in China, and the longest river of the world is in Egypt... what do these prove??? |
In terms of cultural achievements, I think the fact that UNESCO has listed 7 Korean treasures in its World Heritage list compared to Egypts 5 is something to think about.
quote:
Quote form article:"Koreans have great concern for education, and illiteracy is almost non-existent." Hello??? North Korea?? |
First off, it was obvious that Yin was referring to the Republic of Korea, where this most definitely holds true. Secondly, why are you making the assumption that North Koreans are all illiterate? This is a classic example of Western prejudices and misunderstandings, which you seem to be full of. The fact is, a lot of Communist countries have very high literacy rates as well as widespread availability of medical care--I believe Cuba has one of the highest in the world. So, even while a population may be on the brink of starvation, they could still very well be highly educated. Now, I don't really know the actual literacy statistics for the DPRK, but, I gather, neither do you. So, unless you have some hard facts, please do not make overhasty assumptions.
quote:
Quote form article: "Many shows like the Simpsons are actually produced in Korea and shipped back to the U.S. for broadcasting." Wow. I'm impressed. Ever stop and wonder where do all the "Made in China" products in the US market come from? |
There is a major difference between production of a premier TV show (yes, that's right, I said premier...i love the Simpsons!) and production of a tennis shoe. One obviously involves finesse and a sense of prestige while the other doesn't. I'll let you figure out which is which.
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"Taekwondo" is a Chinese word. Koreans merely learned it from a branch of Chinese kungfu. |
Like several Korean words, Tae Kwon Doe is taken from the Hanja. This does not necessarily make it a Chinese word, however. And please do inform me how a martial art such as Tae Kwon Doe (which involves a lot of straight, linear hits) and Kung Fu (which involves a lot of circular motion and roundabout hits) are at all related except to a misunderstanding Westerner such as yourself (not trying to rat on Westerners, as I am one myself...just trying to prove a point)?
quote:
Aside from being called Koreans and the Korean language, I don't see any cultural identity. On the other hand, I think they learn more from others every time they have a war... But I DO give them credit for the good defense they have. |
No cultural identity, huh? What an absolutely ridiculous and offensive statement! So many misconstrued assumptions in only two sentences!
quote:
As for the inventions, I doubt that they invented them. Especially Printing machine thingy and the water clock... Chinese is long credited for inventing paper and the printing process. And water clocks are invented separately by many many civs. |
More (wrong) assumptions! Yes, of course you would doubt that Koreans did all these wonderful things (read above for my comment on the printing press). How could they? They're just a bunch of Chinese-wannabe clowns to you.
quote:
Like one of the first replies on that threat, Korea didn't have a large impact on the world in history. Don't think i'm talking about conquering and "forcing their culture on others"... but unlike many other more impressive civs, Korean culture and way of life are exclusive to Koreans and have not much effect on the world... this is a fact. |
A fact?!? Please, sir, spare me your excerpts from the vestigial encyclopedia of the 19th century Rudyard Kipling type. If you still disagree, I would be more than happy to discuss the vast mélange of Korean cultural achievements with you.
I don't wish to end on this note, however. If I do, you will probably be forever bitter towards Koreans and their culture, and that's not what I want. Let me just say that although I took a lot of personal pot shots at you, it was more directed to what you represent than you, personally. Only about a year ago, I was like you. I had no respect for Asian culture in general, let alone Korean culture. I also harbored a lot of misunderstandings about it. Actually visiting the country and checking it all out first hand changes a lot. I encourage you to keep an open mind.
Last edited by Veracitas on 03-06-2002 at 03:56
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Darkworld Ark
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of the Capitalists
May 2002
time: 05:19
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As for this "Korea invented alot of stuff" argument; Seanbaby invented the smallest trophy, does that mean he should be a civ?
1 - Here's the trophy next to a giant novelty penny.
2 - And here's the penny next to a couple of regular size paperclips.
 Attachment: smallest trophy.jpg
This has been downloaded 103 time(s).
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spicytimothy
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Los Angeles
Nov 2001
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Veracitas
In any case, your statement that Korea has "no unique culture. Period" is a very offensive one |
I hv to apologize for making that statement. Sorry. I Sincerely Regret It. I didn't even notice it until i read ur post. I guess i got carried away...
they do hv a culture and cultural values, but just not as much as other cultures that don't get included in Civ 3 XP.
As for the language, as recent as 1999 South Korean government passed a bill to restart the use of Chinese characters, for they believe is more sophisticated...
The fact that linguist created a language is not unique of the Koreans. The Cherokee did (at least in writing) and the communist Chinese did that too (created the simplified Chinese) I know that they hv a Korean language system of their own nowadays, but u still hv to acknowledge the fact that it borrowed some other language for a long period of time in their history and that undermines their overall appeal as a civ worthy of entering Civ3, at least on a personal level.
Believe me, it's not like i hate the Koreans, but many Koreans friends who also play Civ3 that I hv had discussed this b4, and the things that i talked about r the things that I hv learned from them and agreed on...
But again, i really own everyone an apology... I did not write in with intention... sorry
spicytimothy
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spicytimothy
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Los Angeles
Nov 2001
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Veracitas
Dude, where the HELL are you getting your understanding of asian history?? where the hell are you pulling these assumptions from? You say a lot of "I think"s and "I doubt"s without any real hard fact. All you're really doing is applying your modern, Western, (mis)understanding of Korean history and culture to the facts and dismissing the truth because, of course, Koreans can't be more than dog-eating morons, can they?
First off, you failed to finish your sentence: "As for...the economy of Korea..."...the economy of Korea what? Were you trying to make a statement, because I don't see one here. |
wooo... hang on!!!! First off, I'm an Asian myself. I grow up in Hong Kong and lived there for 15 years, the Los Angeles under my name shows my location...
and pls, don't pick on my language... English is my Ssecond language... i'm sorry that i hv difficulty using it... but ouch... that really hurts...
quote:
You'll see that Korea actually has the 12th largest GDP now. Actually, to tell you the truth, it was number 11 before the IMF crisis. Pretty impressive for a country you claim doesn't exist, huh? |
ok here, maybe i misunderstood u, but in the original post u said Korea is the 13th largest country or sth. U did not mention largest GDP. it's 2 very differnt things. there's a distinct difference when i say Hong Kong is the 8th largest country and the 8th largest GDP of a country/region. (which is true)
quote:
In terms of cultural achievements, I think the fact that UNESCO has listed 7 Korean treasures in its World Heritage list compared to Egypts 5 is something to think about. |
When i talked about the airports and Samsung and stuff, i really mean that. I think there's a difference btw economic achievements and culture. a Large Airport and big companies DOES NOT represent great CULTURE.
quote:
First off, it was obvious that Yin was referring to the Republic of Korea, where this most definitely holds true. |
It's very unfair to focus only on South Korea when it's favorable to an argument while the topic of concern is the whole Korean culture... it's like... o China has very high GDP, coz Hong Kong has a high GDP, and HK is a Special Administrative Region of China... (sorry for the repeated use of Hong Kong as examples... it's a place i'm most familiar with)
quote:
Secondly, why are you making the assumption that North Koreans are all illiterate? This is a classic example of Western prejudices and misunderstandings, which you seem to be full of. |
North Koreans are starving for food, let alone education. U r a man of statistics urself... take a look at them... North Korea has a serious illiteracy problem. And again, I'm NOT a westerner! Stop assuming!
quote:
The fact is, a lot of Communist countries have very high literacy rates as well as widespread availability of medical care |
I did not say that North Korea has high illiteracy rate bcoz it's a communist country. My grandmother is from communist China and she speaks English.
quote:
I believe Cuba has one of the highest in the world. |
now who's assuming??? still me??
quote:
hThere is a major difference between production of a premier TV show (yes, that's right, I said premier...i love the Simpsons!) and production of a tennis shoe. One obviously involves finesse and a sense of prestige while the other doesn't. I'll let you figure out which is which. |
This one i can't tackle. I don't understand what r u talking about. Sorry. My English is sometimes limited...
quote:
Like several Korean words, Tae Kwon Doe is taken from the Hanja. This does not necessarily make it a Chinese word, however. |
It is a translation. You can spell the same word differently in different languages. The fact that you say that the word is taken from Hanja makes it a Chinese word. It's taken from a Chinese root. I have never seen someone created something, and then use another country's language to name it, instead of something from their own language...
quote:
And please do inform me how a martial art such as Tae Kwon Doe (which involves a lot of straight, linear hits) and Kung Fu (which involves a lot of circular motion and roundabout hits) are at all related except to a misunderstanding Westerner such as yourself (not trying to rat on Westerners, as I am one myself...just trying to prove a point)? |
I am NOT a westerner..... sigh... My grandmother practice a form of Kung Fu herself when she was young, so I got some of the information from her... I don't know if u know this, but matial arts has a very long history in China, and over the long period of time, it evolved into many different verions, or as the Chinese call it "Mun Pai" (straight translation: door and clans) I'm not saying that the Koreans did not practice Tae Kown Doe or that they don't have vast accomplishment in this art, but it's not a Korean invention...
quote:
No cultural identity, huh? What an absolutely ridiculous and offensive statement! |
for this, again, as i apologize in respnse to another reply, I'm sorry. What I try to express is not that they don't hv an cultural identity or unique culture, i was just trying to say that the civ of Korea is not as worthy to b added in Civ3 XP as others...
quote:
More (wrong) assumptions! Yes, of course you would doubt that Koreans did all these wonderful things (read above for my comment on the printing press). How could they? They're just a bunch of Chinese-wannabe clowns to you. |
This is an assumption on ur part and it's offensive. i have Koreans friends and nieghbors, and I DID NOT, ADSOLUTELY DID NOT, say that they are "Chinese wannabes" as u proclaimed. that's just a guess on ur part.
quote:
I don't wish to end on this note, however. If I do, you will probably be forever bitter towards Koreans and their culture, and that's not what I want. |
Did my post REALLY gave u such so so so so so negative feelings??? I am really not bitter towards to Koreans...
quote:
Only about a year ago, I was like you. I had no respect for Asian culture in general, let alone Korean culture. |
gosh darn it! This has gone too far! I'm an Asian myself and i wish there's someway i can prove this to u so u will not accuse me anymore. I'm a Hong Kong person, with family origins going back to Shanghai.
quote:
I also harbored a lot of misunderstandings about it. Actually visiting the country and checking it all out first hand changes a lot. I encourage you to keep an open mind. |
well on this note I'm far more fortuate than u for I hv been living in Asia for 15 years and I hv a lot more education and background on Asian culture than u. i hv studied Asian History in Hong Kong since 1st grade as part of the curriculum.
Veracitas, I really appreciate ur reply, and I apologize if my lack of ability to use the language fluently had comfused you. But with all due respect, you are the one who assumes all the way thru ur post. The reason I use words such as 'I believe' and 'I assume" is directly due to my native tongue of Cantonese. It is a courtesy to strangers or elderly to claim that u r not sure or u think something it's true even tho u know it's fact. and it's just my habit to do that in all other languages that I learned. i feel very misunderstood and misquoted that I hate Koreans and Asian culture in general when I am not.
I try my best to keep the tone of this reply corteous and well-natured, and I hope your reply will show that likewise, unlike the previous one.
spicytimothy
looking forward to ur reply/.
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Mikhail
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flesh.and.binary
Mar 2002
time: 23:19
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Boney: Actually, I was just thinking about Siam/Thailand after making that post.
Yes, Thailand would be a much better choice than Tibet, and by far better than Korea. South East asia is very different from the rest of Asia, and not represented at all. Thailands the best choice out of them, though Indonesia wouldn't be bad either.
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KaiserIsak
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of Isakistan Empire
Oct 2000
time: 05:19
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Spiffor--> Most countries are a mix like this.
I would add the khmers if i were to add anyone. I will not write to much about them because i dont kno to much, but they controlled much of south east asia for centuries (much more then today) and their buildings (angor ++) is far more impressive then both koreans and thais. Tibet would also be fun, but would be my second choice.
I will support spicytimothy a little bit. I agree that all the thing that were mentioned in that post is irrelevant. I could say that Norway is number one on the HDI ranks and therefore should be in. But thats just plain idiotic. I could also say that Cuba have the best health welfare in the world (they do have), and therefore should be in. But again....whats the point?
This is a big scale game, if you want to play korea, go play europa universali II (a great game by the way), but in civ only the best of the best should be in.
Historicaly, indonesia have no cultural identity. They are a union of many cultures which had very little with each other to do (trade is an exception offcourse) before the europeans came.
And what have the hebrews done? Created an very very little empire for a few hundred years, and then being constantly occupied for 2000 years++++++++ ( i dont want to make a wild guess, but it is much). The hyksos is better from that territory (they conquered egypt at the time egypt was at its peak).
offcourse they writed some stories down. But that was not before they came to the religious and cultural centre of the region, babylonia.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by KaiserIsak
And what have the hebrews done? Created an very very little empire for a few hundred years, and then being constantly occupied for 2000 years++++++++ ( i dont want to make a wild guess, but it is much). |
hi ,
how about the fact that they are the only civ in the world that still has its language after 5700 years , ............
not to mention the trade system they brought to the world , the concept of using a cheque , ingraved on a stone (!) or skin , .....
the whole banking industry in the older ages , ......
there are many , many things they have given to the world , ....to many to put here , ............
the name should be the Jews , ....
have a nice day
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KaiserIsak
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of Isakistan Empire
Oct 2000
time: 05:19
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Right Panang, but the lydians invented the money, one of the most important things for the world history, would you include them???????
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:19
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quote:
The Chinese invented the first printing press but what Guttenburg did invint was the first use of movable type. |
Wrong:
The Chinese had woodblock printing, which meant new blocks had to be carved for each new page you wanted to print, and the blocks were open to termite attacks and such.
The Koreans, who were expert metal casters, invented the world's first moveable metal type printing press, 200 years before Guttenburg. Guttenburg simply improved on the model that he had heard about from Asia.
These are simple facts.
Last edited by yin26 on 04-06-2002 at 04:58
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:19
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http://www.korea.net/kwnews/pub_foc...&serial_no=2269
December 21, 2001
Korean Information Service
The U.S. Library of Congress, which is the best authority on matters of publication and printing, carried an advertisement in the Washington Post, strongly advising American schools to rectify the widely known but incorrect fact that "Johannes Gutenberg revolutionized civilization by inventing movable type (in 1455)."
The advisory, carried in the newspaper's December 20 edition, informed the public that movable metal printing was used in Korea as early as 1234, predating the Gutenberg printing press by more than 200 years.
The fact that Korea developed the world's first metal printing typeface is well known in Korea, but the fact has not been widely circulated outside the country; Johannes Gutenberg is therefore generally erroneously credited with having invented the first printing press in other parts of the world, including by American grade school teachers.
The advertisement says in part: "From grade school on, we all learned that in 1455 Johannes Gutenberg changed the world. What many of us remember, though, isn't exactly correct. Gutenberg may have invented the first printing press, but he wasn't the first to use interchangeable type or even the first to make type out of metal. That distinction goes to Asia."
The advertisement mentions that the feat was even more interesting because Koreans didn't even have a complete alphabet and appropriated the characters they needed from the Chinese.
The advertisement was carried to publicize the library's exhibition titled ¡°World Treasures of the Library of Congress: Beginnings." The library described it as an exhibition featuring "the library's collection, rarely displayed, that helped people share their experiences and preserve them for future generations." On display, along with the Korean type, are the first book printed in the Western Hemisphere, Galileo's maps of the moon, an Egyptian zodiac chart and much more.
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Boney
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Thailand
Jan 2001
time: 05:19
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Lydians, The.
An Aryan people who passed from the Balkans, probably sailing over the Black Sea, to Asia Minor about 1000 B.C. and settled inland from the Ionian coast. They are interesting for two reasons. They created a very prosperous and attractive civilization - their King Croesus is still a symbol of wealth - by the seventh century B.C. - another instance of the educability of the Aryan "barbarians." The more interesting point is that, borrowing and humanizing the Hittite cult of Ma (the Earth Mother), they developed the corollary of the brotherhood of man more than any other ancient nation. Their life was one of gaiety and pleasure, and "Friend of All" was the most coveted epitaph for a man's tombstone. Through the Ionic cities, and then the Stoics and Epicureans, they had a most important influence on the evolving ethic of the race. With them began the "colleges" or trade unions of workers. The best work on this greatly underrated civilization is Radek's La Lydie et le monde grec (1892), but there is much appreciation in Sir W. Ramsay's Asianic [sic-RW] Elements in Greek Civilization (1927).
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Veracitas
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Berkeley, California (or) Fairfax, Virginia
Jul 1999
time: 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by spicytimothy
wooo... hang on!!!! First off, I'm an Asian myself. I grow up in Hong Kong and lived there for 15 years, the Los Angeles under my name shows my location...
and pls, don't pick on my language... English is my Ssecond language... i'm sorry that i hv difficulty using it... but ouch... that really hurts...
ok here, maybe i misunderstood u, but in the original post u said Korea is the 13th largest country or sth. U did not mention largest GDP. it's 2 very differnt things. there's a distinct difference when i say Hong Kong is the 8th largest country and the 8th largest GDP of a country/region. (which is true)
When i talked about the airports and Samsung and stuff, i really mean that. I think there's a difference btw economic achievements and culture. a Large Airport and big companies DOES NOT represent great CULTURE.
It's very unfair to focus only on South Korea when it's favorable to an argument while the topic of concern is the whole Korean culture... it's like... o China has very high GDP, coz Hong Kong has a high GDP, and HK is a Special Administrative Region of China... (sorry for the repeated use of Hong Kong as examples... it's a place i'm most familiar with)
North Koreans are starving for food, let alone education. U r a man of statistics urself... take a look at them... North Korea has a serious illiteracy problem. And again, I'm NOT a westerner! Stop assuming!
I did not say that North Korea has high illiteracy rate bcoz it's a communist country. My grandmother is from communist China and she speaks English.
now who's assuming??? still me??
This one i can't tackle. I don't understand what r u talking about. Sorry. My English is sometimes limited...
It is a translation. You can spell the same word differently in different languages. The fact that you say that the word is taken from Hanja makes it a Chinese word. It's taken from a Chinese root. I have never seen someone created something, and then use another country's language to name it, instead of something from their own language...
I am NOT a westerner..... sigh... My grandmother practice a form of Kung Fu herself when she was young, so I got some of the information from her... I don't know if u know this, but matial arts has a very long history in China, and over the long period of time, it evolved into many different verions, or as the Chinese call it "Mun Pai" (straight translation: door and clans) I'm not saying that the Koreans did not practice Tae Kown Doe or that they don't have vast accomplishment in this art, but it's not a Korean invention...
for this, again, as i apologize in respnse to another reply, I'm sorry. What I try to express is not that they don't hv an cultural identity or unique culture, i was just trying to say that the civ of Korea is not as worthy to b added in Civ3 XP as others...
This is an assumption on ur part and it's offensive. i have Koreans friends and nieghbors, and I DID NOT, ADSOLUTELY DID NOT, say that they are "Chinese wannabes" as u proclaimed. that's just a guess on ur part.
Did my post REALLY gave u such so so so so so negative feelings??? I am really not bitter towards to Koreans...
gosh darn it! This has gone too far! I'm an Asian myself and i wish there's someway i can prove this to u so u will not accuse me anymore. I'm a Hong Kong person, with family origins going back to Shanghai.
well on this note I'm far more fortuate than u for I hv been living in Asia for 15 years and I hv a lot more education and background on Asian culture than u. i hv studied Asian History in Hong Kong since 1st grade as part of the curriculum.
Veracitas, I really appreciate ur reply, and I apologize if my lack of ability to use the language fluently had comfused you. But with all due respect, you are the one who assumes all the way thru ur post. The reason I use words such as 'I believe' and 'I assume" is directly due to my native tongue of Cantonese. It is a courtesy to strangers or elderly to claim that u r not sure or u think something it's true even tho u know it's fact. and it's just my habit to do that in all other languages that I learned. i feel very misunderstood and misquoted that I hate Koreans and Asian culture in general when I am not.
I try my best to keep the tone of this reply corteous and well-natured, and I hope your reply will show that likewise, unlike the previous one.
spicytimothy
looking forward to ur reply/. |
Well, Yin cleared up some stuff. One thing: Guttenberg is mistakenly credited with invention of the MOVABLE TYPE printing press, that's what the whole discussion was about. People had been printing using inefficient wood blocks for hundreds of years, even in Europe.
Oh, also, when I was referring to GDP, I was referring to total GDP, not per capita. Thus, the reason that China has such a high total GDP is because it is so FRIGGIN' LARGE. Korea, which has a much smaller population still holds the 12th position for total GDP.
Anyway, let's not continue a long, drawn-out argument like this, lest it turn into another Apolyton fight-for-Korea war.
I also apologize if I misread what you meant b/c you don't know the English language that well. I'm glad you still responded in a good-natured fashion. Ok, well, happy civ-ing.
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02-06-2002 10:15
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