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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:12
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Jason - quote:
Berzerker: Mark answered your "Huge game killing bug." You didn't have the pre-reqs for Economics. |
Not according to the tech tree that comes with the game. And Markus offered his explanation AFTER I posted my complaint and request for the improvement. You seem to be saying I should have never made the complaint in the first place and that I have no business making the request for the improvement.
quote:
We weren't talking about evil bugged internet play when you went into a carpet-chewing rage against Zanzin for his (obviously entirely accurate) remarks. |
His only comment was that I was in the wrong forum (with insult added). He was wrong since I was addressing my comment to the people who were responsible for Civ II and about to offer Civ III. But I guess it'll take you even longer than it took him to figure that out. And yes, my prior experience with the unprofessional (FRAUD) conduct of these people has colored my attitude toward them and the people who defend them.
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Read your insanely stupid post about how he's a peice of human waste and you'd punch him if he pointed out your stupidity personally. |
If I had done something foolish, I could accept someone pointing out my error, but when some ignoramus calls me a fool because he cant understand simple logic, I would punch him in the nose.
But you've offered nothing but a series of inaccurate and incomprehensible statements as I have shown while you have failed to show how my posts are stupid. Do understand how to debate?
quote:
Any other questions? |
Yes, are you a leftist/liberal? I understand they have extra thick skulls, so I may need to work out on the heavy bag before paying you a visit.
quote:
Yes, that's my real address. Yes, I highly doubt you'll make any use of it. Why? Because it was a stupid, empty threat when you made it. |
Hey, dummy, I never made the threat. He challenged me to come down to Australia to punch him. It isn't a threat to accept (or reject) the challenge of someone who is making a threat.  Yeah, think about it Einstein, he was the one who made the threat, not me, lol. Was he making a stupid, empty challenge or are you a hypocrite too?
quote:
Remember the portion of this charming discourse when we discussed people making empty threats behind computer screens? |
Or was it empty challenges? Doh!
quote:
Cyclotron, I'm sorry to interrupt useful discussions with this matter, but it's Berzerker who's refused to be sensible and apologize to Zanzin. Uttering threats, calling people pieces of ****... |
Jason, you are a hypocrite, you defend calling strangers fools while complaining about people "uttering threats" when all I did was respond to his challenge to travel to Australia to punch him.
And you want me to apologise to that as$hole?
Zanzin - quote:
"Beserker", you started the violence by calling Firaxis clowns. |
And you call me a fool? LOL. The people who sold Civ II for the internet are frauds, especially the people who put out the Mac version. Apparently I spoke ill of someone's sacred cow, get over it!
quote:
You're fist post states "I'm in the middle of a tribe game"
"in the middle of" ?? civ3 isn't even out yet.....I now understand that you were talking about a "problem" in civ2 that you feel shouldn't be present in civ3. Okay, fair enough.....but man, you've got a serious attitude problem - the way you go about things is just rubbing everyone the wrong way. |
I'm not the one who entered someone else's thread to announce they are a fool because I could not understand what they were talking about. Btw, I could not very well be in the middle of a Civ III game. Everyone who has made suggestions for Civ III has done so with Civ II as there starting point.
quote:
You keep talking about "where you come from" - where do you come from? Some place of the earth where everybody is walking around and the first person who looks at you cockeyed you punch out? What the hell are you trying to prove? |
I live just outside of Topeka, Kansas. And this is not about giving someone a certain look, it's about calling strangers "fools". Do it around here and you've got a fight on your hands. I doubt you could get away with your behavior down under either. But let's see, walk up to someone you think could kick your butt and call them a fool. You seem to think we are unusual here, I suspect people down there are not much different.
quote:
Get over yourself, you're not that great, and drop the whole macho act - you're not fooling anyone |
Never said I was great, that's the second strawman in your post.
And what I told you was the truth, if you had called me a fool to my face under these circumstances, I would have decked you. And when I apologise to someone, I dont call them an idiot at the same time - that was really slimey.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:12
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Zanzin - quote:
Can we just put this behind us now? |
Yes. Btw, Jason thinks you are a wimp.
DanS - quote:
Berzerker: I would remind you that those who put out Civ2 MPG aren't the ones who did Civ2. The Civ2-ers had already moved on to Firaxis, IIRC, and now on to Big Huge Games |
I addressed my comments to the people responsible for the Civ II sold to us under the guise of internet play and Civ III. Obviously if someone working on Civ III had nothing to do with Civ II, my comments were not meant for them beyond my request that they either remove the randomness in tech research or provide an option for the host to remove said randomness.
Krazyhorse -
If you dont like the thread, STAY THE HELL OUT! I dont enter your threads demanding they be shut down.
quote:
Doesn't anyone know that even if you have the pre-reqs for a tech, 1/3 of the time you can't research it? |
Apparently you are the only one in this thread who knows that. And had this thread been shut down as per someone else's demands, you would not have been able to share your knowledge with us. But as I pointed out, I at least want the makers of Civ III to provide us with the option of removing this randomness, so sorry to disturb you.
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Jason
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Halifax, NS, Canada
Aug 1999
time: 05:12
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Theban: Ditto. As if Hasblow has anything to do with the people making Civ3! Multiplayer bugs certainly aren't the fault of the original civ2 dev team.
Btw, Zanzin, what's Berzerker is (apparently) referring to was my first ICQ message where I said if I had been you, I would have called his absurd threat of physical violence what it was, a sad joke.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:12
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Zanzin - quote:
who are you, Jason's husband? |
I guess you were just kidding when you asked to put this behind us. No, Jason let me know over ICQ how he felt about you.
Theben - quote:
It was either stated in the manual with the game, or in one of the strategy guides. |
Oh gee, that narrows it down  I must have forgot to read all those strategy guides. Markus is no slouch at this game and he thought Economics had a 'hidden' pre-req not in the tree. Rah thought it was just randomness without mentioning the 1/3rd part. But how does this invalidate my post? I did not know either AND I wanted it fixed for Civ III.
But you waited until now to say so, thanks.
quote:
I also thought it was common knowledge. |
And I thought it was common knowledge that gov't switching occured every 4 turns (on deity at least), but Oedo showed otherwise. So what?
quote:
And that wasn't meant as a cut, I REALLY thought that.. Before you go ballistic again. |
Pardon me, but I only go "ballistic" when people launch insults without cause from behind a computer screen.
quote:
However you did come into a civ3 forum with a civ2 question. You could have completed your title "...crap in civ3!" or made some mention of civ3 in your post. It comes across as a civ2 concern. |
Strange, I post a complaint about Civ II and a request it be fixed in a Civ III forum, and some people cant figure out I meant the complaint and request for the makers of Civ II and Civ III. I guess I should have spelled it out for you, but in reality, your opinion doesn't matter. My request was made for the makers of Civ III, not you, and while I think they can figure out what I am requesting, posting my request in a Civ II forum would only lessen the chances they would ever see it.
quote:
You also have a knack of copping a serious attitude in your posts, which is why you got slapped with the "fool" label. |
I was called a "fool" because Zanzin thought I should be posting in another forum. Perhaps you didn't read his post? Let's face it, some people here are mad because I went after a Sacred Cow - Sid Meier et al.
quote:
Save such rants for the OT, please. It ain't welcome here. |
I don't need your approval to post here. Had I posted this there, I would have been told to post it here
quote:
I find it equally hard to believe that Rah is defending your attacks. |
He merely pointed out that the issue is worthy of debate, naturally that sounds like he is defending me to someone at odds with me.
quote:
And lastly, I prefer the current method of not always allowing a civ to pick a tech even though it has the pre-reqs. Even though it has on occasion pissed me off in the past. |
Ah, so you've reacted in a similar fashion but it's wrong for me to make a post expressing my complaint?
Jason - quote:
Theban: Ditto. As if Hasblow has anything to do with the people making Civ3! Multiplayer bugs certainly aren't the fault of the original civ2 dev team. |
Hey Jason, where did I say Hasbro was to blame? Did they make Civ II ? Noooooo.
quote:
Btw, Zanzin, what's Berzerker is (apparently) referring to was my first ICQ message where I said if I had been you, I would have called his absurd threat of physical violence what it was, a sad joke |
Lol, that wasn't what you said. You accused him of backing down and lamented his lack of backbone.
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:12
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quote:
Strange, I post a complaint about Civ II and a request it be fixed in a Civ III forum, and some people cant figure out I meant the complaint and request for the makers of Civ II and Civ III. I guess I should have spelled it out for you, but in reality, your opinion doesn't matter. My request was made for the makers of Civ III, not you, and while I think they can figure out what I am requesting, posting my request in a Civ II forum would only lessen the chances they would ever see it. |
There's a difference between "posting a complaint" and insulting people by calling them "clowns". People tend not to respond to insults, at least not in a positive way. Your insults invalidate the whole point of your post, since by now it's obvious that you won'y get a response from Firaxis. And yes, I was able to realize quite easily that you intended it as a "fix" for civ3, but then again it may not have been as obvious to others...such as Zanzin. But you didn't know it's meant to be that way, and not needing a fix. Obvious to you, obvious to me...it's all POV.
quote:
Let's face it, some people here are mad because I went after a Sacred Cow - Sid Meier et al. |
Possible...but I doubt it 'cuz then Imran would've leading the charge against you.
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Had I posted this there, I would have been told to post it here. |
Not the post- the attitude.
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Ah, so you've reacted in a similar fashion but it's wrong for me to make a post expressing my complaint? |
I also get pissed when I lose a battle that I was certain I'd win, or have a transport w/ 8 units on board sunk. But I don't think those require a fix...
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulAssassin
Berserker must be one of those, "I'm a dork so I'll start internet fights"
I doubt you could even code a game of checkers in Basic so don't rip on the people that developed Civ ][. Unfortunately, games are a business. And all businesses are governed by the ill-fated profit margin. Programmers don't always get the time they'd like to polish a game and sometimes the cost of fixing a bug isn't worth the cost of issuing a patch.
Windows 9x and ME have over 65,000 documented bugs that are due to approximately 1,000 sub-routines that have errors. The bugs don't get fixed because it would cost Microsoft too much to fix it, plus they are too busy working on their next bug filled OS. If Civ 3 has bugs, Firaxis will probably only fix the major ones due to the fact that nobody is going to work for free.
Plus, the "bug" that you talked about was your own dumb a55 not knowing about how the tech tree worked, so STFU. |
Gee using Crappy microsoft software as a justification to produce code with bugs. This must be a generation thing. I am an old application programmer and that mentality really sucks. I am embarrassed whenever a bug is found in any work that I've done.
And to say economics is the excuse is just compounding it. That's all it is, an excuse to produce CRAP. But I am also aware on any application large enough, there will be errors. I appreciate that the patches for CIV II resolved many of them. But I would have been embarassed to be on that programming team. Even when management probably told them to stop wasting money fixing it and just prep it for market. A lot of older programmers have more pride than that. The only thing worse would have been to be on the CTPII team.
But this is all besides the point, If you look at his first post he said...
"If you have the pre-reqs, the tech should be a stinking option!!!"
That is the real issue and that's what should be being discussed here, so go away.
RAH
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:12
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Theben - quote:
There's a difference between "posting a complaint" and insulting people by calling them "clowns". |
We are talking about people who fraudulently sold a product advertised as internet ready. "Clowns" is a mild commentary on their character...
quote:
People tend not to respond to insults, at least not in a positive way. |
I'd be happy if they read it, no responses are needed from them.
quote:
Your insults invalidate the whole point of your post, since by now it's obvious that you won'y get a response from Firaxis. |
That is your opinion, unless you're a mindreader and have read their minds, your opinion is worth 2 cents I don't care to engage these frauds (Firaxis?) in a debate, I want them to give us the option of eliminating as much randomness as possible and I want a game that doesn't need months of patches to operate as advertised.
quote:
And yes, I was able to realize quite easily that you intended it as a "fix" for civ3, but then again it may not have been as obvious to others...such as Zanzin. |
Thank you, but IF it was not obvious to you, would you enter a thread to call the originator a fool for not being in the right forum? I wouldn't do that even if I knew for a fact he was posting in the wrong forum. I'm very civil until someone starts flaming 
quote:
But you didn't know it's meant to be that way, and not needing a fix. Obvious to you, obvious to me...it's all POV. |
I never considered it a bug. But I still considered it an 'inconsistency' in need of "fixing" for the next in the Civ series like the extra host techs and the variable number of settlers on sub-deity levels.
quote:
Possible...but I doubt it 'cuz then Imran would've leading the charge against you |
Lol.
quote:
Not the post- the attitude |
But it was the post - according to him. He chastised me for posting in the wrong forum, not for my attitude. But I know what you're saying, I meant to be abrasive. I wanted the people who sold me Civ II to know my feelings toward them.
DanS & RAH - quote:
In the end, I agree with rah. Randomness is good |
Actually I do see the "pros" of having this randomness, the game might be a bit more boring without it and not getting a desired tech can alter research paths. Nevertheless, I do want the designers to give us the option of removing randomness that gives people an advantage imposed from outside the actual gameplay. That would include removing huts as well...
SoulAssassin - quote:
Berserker must be one of those, "I'm a dork so I'll start internet fights" |
It was not my intent to start fights with apolytoners. It was my intent to let the people who sold me/us a defective product know that I was not happy being defrauded. Apparently you found in my opening post a request for a flame war and not a request for a change to be incorporated into Civ III.
quote:
I doubt you could even code a game of checkers in Basic so don't rip on the people that developed Civ ][. |
So if you cannot build a car engine, you should never complain if the engine in your new car blows up? Oh goody, another flamer showed up for a shooting match unarmed. 
quote:
Unfortunately, games are a business. And all businesses are governed by the ill-fated profit margin. Programmers don't always get the time they'd like to polish a game and sometimes the cost of fixing a bug isn't worth the cost of issuing a patch. |
I don't give a damn about excuses, if you tell someone the product you are selling them will do "A", it better do "A" or you'd better replace it with one that does.
quote:
Plus, the "bug" that you talked about was your own dumb a55 not knowing about how the tech tree worked, so STFU. |
I never referred to it as a bug, Assassin. Notice how I use quotes? They help us "dorks" avoid the mistakes you clever types are in the habit of making. I called it an inconsistency or randomness on par with the extra host techs, huts and varying numbers of settlers on start up. And while I suspected a pattern in the randomness of tech research, I never was that curious to spend the time finding out. Long before Oedo posted his analysis of the gov't switching dates - every 4 turns starting in 3850 BC - I "discovered" that pattern, but I never went around calling all the people who complained about sitting in anarchy dumb or some other insult for not knowing the pattern existed. Just a note, you guys with the big bad mouths are hypocrites! You'll don't walk around talking like this to people face to face, so you only get the balls to do it from behind a computer screen, you're really pathetic.
Krazyhorse - quote:
Berzerker, the original subject of this thread was valid, i.e.: "Why can't I research techs I have the pre-reqs for?", and "I hope it will be different in CivIII". |
Well, Theben (and you) was right, had I put it like that, I wouldn't be attracting flamers (although I'm not sure why they seem intent on defending 'false advertisers'). But my disgust with these people who sold me defective software in need of months of repairs did color my opening post.
quote:
The reason I want this thread to die is that it stays at the top of the list of threads with the large number of new responses, which are mainly just insults being thrown about. I'm not in the CivIII-General/Suggestions forum to read peronal attacks (I know it's not just you doing so); I'm here to find out new facts about CivIII and trade suggestions with people. While this thread stays at the top, it pushes other, more interesting threads down off of the first page. If the off-topic comments would cease, then I would have no problem with this thread, even if I were not particularly engaged by its specific subject. |
Well, that I can understand. I'm sure if the designers of Civ III have people read these forums they would have had ample time to catch this one. Unless provoked I will be cease posting here...
RAH - quote:
I am an old application programmer and that mentality really sucks. I am embarrassed whenever a bug is found in any work that I've done |
Being largely computer illiterate I was surprised to learn that bugs are so common (at least for Civ II) and "accepted", even defended. But I am slowly being assimilated
Cya guys
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Jason
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Halifax, NS, Canada
Aug 1999
time: 05:12
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First, I never made disparaging remarks about Zanzin. That's a lie. What I said early on was:
quote:
You have sent a message!
I wasn't really thinking of a "challenge" per se... More of a pre-emptive thing. Anyway, the guy who said it was funny that you were against talking big on the internet as compared to real life made a pretty good point, wouldn't you say? I can just see you laying the smackdown on Firaxis dev team guys if you actually saw them.
Anyway, I just thought it was sad how the guy backed down. I wouldn't have
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That's lamenting his lack of backbone? I'd say I'm lamenting his civility and unwillingness to make an issue of your idiotic "I'd beat you if you said that to me in person "statements" which you seem to feel aren't threats.
quote:
We are talking about people who fraudulently sold a product advertised as internet ready. "Clowns" is a mild commentary on their character...
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How many people were left from the real "civ2 team" when the bug ridden game, MGE, finally went out the door? By that point MPS was in rough shape and most of the big boys had left for Firaxis, if I recall correctly.
quote:
That is your opinion, unless you're a mindreader and have read their minds, your opinion is worth 2 cents I don't care to engage these frauds (Firaxis?) in a
debate, I want them to give us the option of eliminating as much randomness as possible and I want a game that doesn't need months of patches to operate
as advertised.
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Firaxis didn't put out Civ2:MGE. "Their" first Civ game is CivIII, althuogh members of the team came from Civ1 and Civ2. If you think Civ2 is "crap," well, enjoy Warcraft.
quote:
Thank you, but IF it was not obvious to you, would you enter a thread to call the originator a fool for not being in the right forum? I wouldn't do that even if I
knew for a fact he was posting in the wrong forum. I'm very civil until someone starts flaming
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You started flaming when you swore and insulted people for stuff they didn't even do in the first post and for that matter, the subject header. A different phrasing might have been "Take this crap out of this forum and RTFM unless you want to make a clear suggestion."
quote:
Just a note, you guys with the big bad mouths are hypocrites! You'll don't walk around talking like this to
people face to face, so you only get the balls to do it from behind a computer screen, you're really pathetic.
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Look in the damn mirror, YOU are the loudmouth. Who talks about how he'd hit people if they defied his righteous will in person. Guess what. I have no problems calling fools and idiots fools and idiots in person, within reason. 400 pound fools can go ahead and be foolish. Weedy little computer dorks can watch their mouths and think before they speak.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:12
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Sorry Krazyhorse
Jason - quote:
First, I never made disparaging remarks about Zanzin. That's a lie. What I said early on was:
I just thought it was sad how the guy backed down. I wouldn't have
That's lamenting his lack of backbone? |
Sad = lament, idiot! Why was it sad? Because he backed down, idiot! You wouldn't have backed down = you da man!, He did back down = he da wimp, idiot!
quote:
I'd say I'm lamenting his civility and unwillingness to make an issue of your idiotic "I'd beat you if you said that to me in person "statements" which you seem to feel aren't threats. |
As I explained over ICQ, a threat is a statement about what one will do in the future, not the past. I told him what I would have done, not what I will do. And the whole point of my comment was to expose his hypocrisy - the hypocrisy of insulting strangers from behind a computer screen while not insulting them to their face. And no, what I did to the people who sold me a product (civ II) via false advertising is not analogous, idiot! They are not strangers, they offered me a contract which they violated, idiot! But he challenged me to come to Australia so he could show me how tough he is, that was the threat, idiot (which also refutes your nonsense about his civility and unwillingness to make an issue of the matter)! And since when is it civil to enter a thread and call strangers fools? You are a moron, Jason!
quote:
How many people were left from the real "civ2 team" when the bug ridden game, MGE, finally went out the door? |
I don't give a flying ****! Why don't you tell us since you find some relevance to this question? My comment ("clowns") was directed to those who sold us Civ II mp and were involved with Civ III. The only way your point here matters is if NO ONE was involved with both.
quote:
Firaxis didn't put out Civ2:MGE. "Their" first Civ game is CivIII, althuogh members of the team came from Civ1 and Civ2. If you think Civ2 is "crap," well, enjoy Warcraft |
I do, but did any one from Civ2:MGE join the Civ III team? And stop putting words in my mouth you piece of slime! I didn't say Civ II was crap, I said the randomness in tech research was crap (in addition to the other randomness and bugs in the game), as$hole!
quote:
You started flaming when you swore and insulted people for stuff they didn't even do in the first post and for that matter, the subject header. |
Have you proven no one involved with Civ III came from Civ II mp? NO you idiot! And I know this is taxing your mind, but if no one came from Civ II mp, then there is no one to be insulted since my comment was for the makers of Civ II mp who are now on Civ III. Boy you are stupid!
quote:
A different phrasing might have been "Take this crap out of this forum and RTFM unless you want to make a clear suggestion." |
Hmm...several people (not Zanzin) knew what I was saying, are you and Zanzin just too stupid to figure out what they knew to be obvious? Yup...
quote:
Look in the damn mirror, YOU are the loudmouth. |
For calling to task a group of people for false advertising/fraud?
Gee, I guess no one (including hypocrites like you and Zanzin) had better speak ill of those who violate contracts lest they be called "loudmouths".
quote:
Who talks about how he'd hit people if they defied his righteous will in person. |
"Defied his righteous will"? Don't you mean for calling a stranger a fool while hiding behind a computer screen?
???
quote:
I have no problems calling fools and idiots fools and idiots in person, within reason. |
To their faces or from behind a computer screen? If you make this a practice while standing in front of people, then you might end up a dead fool. Someday you will get stomped. But we know you don't do this so stop acting tough when you are just a little weasel.
quote:
400 pound fools can go ahead and be foolish. Weedy little computer dorks can watch their mouths and think before they speak. |
Me a computer dork? Lol, I'm a car mechanic, I work for a living! You - the college student - and Zanzin, SoulAssassin, know alot more about computers than me, does that mean you'll are weedy little dorks? But you should also warn against computer 'dorks' speaking after they think, good advice for Zanzin, SoulAssassin and you. Btw, you threatened me over ICQ when you told me how you would have a baseball bat waiting for me, so your complaining about my so-called threat is just more of your hypocrisy. Oh so manly, he has a baseball bat he'd needs for a fistfight
Oh, if you have a problem with being called stupid, fool, idiot, etc., I am just practicing what you yourself said was appropriate.
Zanzin - quote:
You gota admit Bezerker, you are a fair bit of fool. |
You said that in your first post. I see you still have not learned to support your claims.
quote:
And Jason sums it up very nicely. |
What a surprise.
quote:
When you start a thread the way you did, what did you expect to happen? |
I wanted the makers of Civ II and Civ III to reflect on their behavior and the makers of Civ III to provide consumers with an option to reduce randomness.
quote:
The way you wrote that inital post was hardly civil. |
The way the makers of Civ II mp defrauded people was hardly civil, defending them is downright bizarre.
quote:
Jason, thanks for the support. The reason I backed down ages ago is because I'm accustomed to arguing with idiots... |
That explains how you got so good at making idiotic arguments
quote:
I know once you get into a verbal argument with them |
There is such a thing as non-verbal arguments?
quote:
they only lower you to their level and beat with you experience. |
You mean like your first contribution to this thread - calling someone a fool for allegedly posting in the wrong forum when several people have agreed this is the right forum? Even you have acknowledged you might have made a mistake. Are they the idiots or you? You've yet to show how one statement of mine is the least bit "foolish".
Cya fool 
Last edited by Berzerker on 07-06-2001 at 11:44
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:12
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I'm SOOOO happy I don't moderate this forum anymore! LOL I must say the lively exchange reminds me of some monster fights I used to get into whenever I'd take a company to task for shoddy work. It's amazing that consumers often DEFEND being ripped off. Bizarre.
I will say, though, I was a bit taken off track at first myself first with the title, etc. It's one thing, I think, to take on a company for past ills (as I have done many times), another to take on current ills (God knows I've done that), and another to take a gun-to-the-head approach over the next project (though that can fall into the "current ills" category considering we have no assurances that certain things will be fixed/changed). Mind you, assuming the worst is a totally understandable and logical position, but I guess I'm just a softy at heart and believe that sometimes working with the "enemy" can get better results than firing up the war machine.
Having said that, I came to the conclusion a while ago that sometimes angry hyperbole, though often creating a low signal to noise ratio, CAN stir up the pot a bit and expose some dirty laundry to the light of day. And like it or not, companies DO need to be reminded of the past...especially computer game companies. On the other hand, those guys are particularly good at "selective surfing."
Carry on.
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02-06-2001 12:18
Why not just show how it is misplaced?
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