03-06-2002 06:18									#61
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Wait, I remember this exact same argument...about the federal government and Alberta.

The difference is, the Ontarians are big enough to not have to compromise. You aren't, and probably won't ever be.

	03-06-2002 06:19									#62
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Yes, it's a similar argument.

Alberta is small enough, population wise, that the Federal government can consistently give it the shaft simply because the "regional" liberals are in power.

The difference if the liberals vote for the CA, is the CA needs Ontario's votes to stay in power, and would also appease them.

	03-06-2002 06:24									#63
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The liberals managed at least a showing in the West. The CA is stuck in the BC-Alta-Sask-Man region which contains less than a third of Canada's population and seats. They have to do something to get out. What that something is is up to the Ca leadership, but I get the feeling that if and when they do it they'll have less appeal to their core constituency in Alta, and migh undergo yet another schism...

	03-06-2002 06:28									#64
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Tsk, tsk, Kitty. Asher has a point. An aweful lot of people in Ontario voted for CA last time. They are as much a regional party as the Tories are.

OTOH. My prediction. Either Martin unseats Jean the Mangler in February, or Ontario will return a significant number of Tory, CA AND NDP MPs next go. Hell, Quebec might even go back to the Tories. The Liberals will get trounced. Not a minority. It'll be either CA or Tories leading a coalition government.

Can you believe that clown saying that 'it was only a few million bucks... And it was for a good cause...' As if the cause were the point. Pfff.

	03-06-2002 06:34									#65
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If Jean stays in power, I bet it'll be just like the old NDP government in BC going down in flames.

	03-06-2002 06:44									#66
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Yes. We all know how much the people of BC appreciate their new government.

	03-06-2002 06:44									#67
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Very well could be. It's funny. It's almost like someone flipped a switch about 3 to 6 months ago and suddenly the media and many insiders are starting to trash the Liberals.

Last time a government was so maligned the party was reduced to 2 seats in the next election. This will not be so severe. No Free Trade bitterness. No GST issue. But it could go bad.

If Martin knocks off Chretien, he could probably hold the Libs in power for another 1 or 2 elections (or more).

	03-06-2002 07:50									#68
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Chretien just fired the one person in cabinet who actually could do his job.

He also fired one of the most popular federal Liberals, the one who's keeping all of the right-of-centre epople from voting for Joe Clark.

He's also just taken some bad PR over the most recent corruption scandal.

If the liberal Party knows what's good for themselves, Chretien's out.

	03-06-2002 08:08									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Asher the CA is moderate right.

And so was Thatcher and Regan.

Matin's departure isn't going to change anything. The CA, PC and NDP are too incompetent to get elected.

The CA won't do any better in the next election because Harper will stick his foot in his mouth just like his predecessors. Look at his comments about the Maritimes where he called them lazy. There might be some truth in his comments, but do you think anyone out there will vote for him. No bloody way.

Sooner or later, Harper will say something to piss off Ontario.

The PCs and the CAs will split the right wing vote. At best, they might be able to get enough seats to deny the Liberals a majority, in which case the NDP will become the kingmaker like KH said cause the Liberals would never form a government with the PC and CA.

	03-06-2002 08:11									#70
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The CA is moderate right wing. Hell, the republicans from the US tend to be more right wing, let alone Floyd & Co... You seem to think you're centrist, when you're actually left wing. So I can see how you think the Canadian Alliance is so radical. It's not, really, it's par for the course for a Western nation's conservative party.

As much as I enjoy your type of argument, Tingkai, I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Your entire argument hinges on Harper putting his foot in his mouth, when it's entirely the liberals that are doing that (have you paid attention to Canadian news lately?).

You're just being so incredibly silly I'm still trying to figure out if you're joking. But I don't think you are.

	03-06-2002 08:17									#71
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I am reminded of quotes like this:

quote: When holding a press conference on Free Trade with U.S. president Bill Clinton, Canadian prime minister Jean Chretien was asked what he thought about all the drugs that were entering Canada from the U.S. He responded: "Well, it's more trade." After a tense moment of silence and some muffled laughter Clinton leaned over and whispered something in Chretien's ear. Chretien immediately blurted "Oh drugs! I thought you said trucks!"

	03-06-2002 08:18									#72
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The Liberals do a lot of stupid things, but I can't recall the last time they insulted an entire region of voters by calling them lazy. The fact that Harper repeated his comments a couple of days later indicates that the CA political strategists have their heads of their butts.

	03-06-2002 08:20									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The Liberals do a lot of stupid things, but I can't recall the last time they insulted an entire region of voters by calling them lazy. The fact that Harper repeated his comments a couple of days later indicates that the CA political strategists have their heads of their butts.

You do realize that Harper was referring to the unemployed people who have been unemployed for years on end, not the entire region, right?

Maybe we should lynch you now for calling the entire region unemployed.

Can you actually find me a quote where Harper used the word lazy? All the ones I've found are from the NDP leader.

Here's another great Chretien quote:

quote: Perhaps the most famous Chretien quotes involve the APEC scandals. When asked by reporters about his involvement, Chretien responded by saying, "For me, pepper I put it on my plate." Chretien also reportedly said that the students were lucky that they were not beaten by baseball bats.

	03-06-2002 08:22									#74
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon But KG, if you get rid of her Canada truly will be an American suburb

Not bloody likely. I think a Commonwealth. You know, like Puerto Rico.

	03-06-2002 08:26									#75
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Here are the real words from Harper. Someone tell me where it calls the entire region lazy:

quote: There is a dependence in the region that breeds a culture of defeatism

And the CBC article says later:

quote: Harper tried to clarify his remarks Wednesday by saying that the defeatist culture isn't restricted to Atlantic Canada. But he added that his party has to break through that attitude if the Canadian Alliance is to have a breakthrough of its own in region. "We have a program that says that Atlantic Canada can be as wealthy as any other region, but that needs to be pursued aggressively and we don't sit around waiting for favours," he said.

Tingkai seems to be spouting the typical NDP-recycled trash like always. The only place 'Lazy' is mentioned is from the NDP leader's "interpretation" of it. Now it's suddenly "fact".

	03-06-2002 08:29									#76
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Chrétien can get away with it because nobody understands what the hell he's saying anyways.

And when they do, he just gives them the big old Chrétien shrug.

	03-06-2002 08:29									#77
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Sure JC's comments were stupid, but he was directly acting a whole region of people.

Harper said:
"Atlantic Canada's culture of defeat will be hard to overcome as long as Atlantic Canada is actually physically trailing the rest of the country."

The Liberals, PC and NDP are going to have a field day with that quote in the next election.

	03-06-2002 08:30									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai CA political strategists have their heads of their butts.

We've known that since that fateful day when the CCRAP party was unveiled.

	03-06-2002 08:31									#79
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Where the hell does he mention lazy?

And you seem to be mistaken if you don't think Chretien alienates provinces. He frequently pisses off Alberta with comments.

For every one quote from Harper which mentions that a region of Canada has consistently been performing poorly economically, there's 10 from Chretien which mention beating students with baseball bats, the fact that his government "lost" $1B, the fact he spent $100M on private jets, etc.

Oh, and now the fact that he fired his only competent cabinet minister and told everyone running against him they'd need to drop out of the race or be fired.

What a nice guy.

	03-06-2002 08:33									#80
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Alberta's given the Liberals a big fat raspberry, so Chrétien's not going to bother not trying to piss them off.

	03-06-2002 08:35									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit We've known that since that fateful day when the CCRAP party was unveiled.

That was a Canadian classic.

The thing that gets me is that Harper pisses off the Martimes and he can't even figure out that he has done something wrong. The CAs are all sitting there telling themselves that Harper was just speaking the truth without thinking about how his comments will go down with voters in the east. Typical CA thinking.

I am an NDP supporter, but at least I realize when the NDP is sticking its foot in its mouth. The worst NDP line was the one about "ordinary Canadians." This completely alienated voters because no one wants to identify with "ordinary" people.

	03-06-2002 08:38									#82
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Tingkai, the quotes aren't nearly as bad as the NDP and Liberals are hyping them up to be.

It's quite clear from Harper's further quotes that he intends to bolster the economic situation of the region.

Instead of bringing that up, the NDP (in their infinite wisdom) keeps running around screaming at the marintimes and zombie supporters "THEY CALLED US LAZY! HOW DARE THEY! WHAT DO WE THINK ABOUT THAT? WE DON'T LIKE IT, RIGHT?! NO WE DONT! DOWN WITH THE CA! WOOO!!!!".

Lazy was her own word, perhaps she should take flak for that.

	03-06-2002 08:40									#83
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Whatever works. Whatever works...

Anyhoo, time will tell.

	03-06-2002 08:41									#84
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Well, much of this was precipitated by Chrétien shipping off former Industry Minister Gagliano (sp) to the Ambassador's post in Denmark amidst charges of corruption during his tenure...

I can't believe that Chrétien actually shipped Gagliano off to *Denmark*. I mean, could he (or his press agents) not see that there would be instant comparisons to Hamlet and the line "there's a rot in the Kingdom of Denmark" (or something like that).

	03-06-2002 08:44									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Where the hell does he mention lazy? And you seem to be mistaken if you don't think Chretien alienates provinces. He frequently pisses off Alberta with comments. For every one quote from Harper which mentions that a region of Canada has consistently been performing poorly economically, there's 10 from Chretien which mention beating students with baseball bats, the fact that his government "lost" $1B, the fact he spent $100M on private jets, etc. Oh, and now the fact that he fired his only competent cabinet minister and told everyone running against him they'd need to drop out of the race or be fired. What a nice guy.

You don't get it Asher. Harper insulted the Maritimes, place he is trying to develop a power base. Not only that, he insulted all the Martimers living in the RoC. And what political gains did he achieve in the end. None. His comments might appeal to Western conservatives, but they were going to vote for him anyway.

When JC says something that pisses off Albertans, it doesn't matter too much, because as you have told us so often, the Liberals don't care about Alberta and they don't need Albertan votes.

As for JC and Martin, The Liberal spin on the JC's stand is that he is showing his strength, laying down the law and that he is in control of his party.

And your comments about "what a nice guy" indicates you don't understand politics. How often do Canadians vote for parties that have a "nice guy" as a leader.

	03-06-2002 08:47									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai When JC says something that pisses off Albertans, it doesn't matter too much, because as you have told us so often, the Liberals don't care about Alberta and they don't need Albertan votes.

Hold on here.
Suddenly Alberta is not important, where the Maritimes are?

It's quite clear they're not going to vote for the CA anyway. Notice how they vote NDP and Liberal? They're too left wing. Even if the CA praised them for being the best people in the world they still wouldn't vote.

It's the same deal as Liberals and Alberta.

quote: As for JC and Martin, The Liberal spin on the JC's stand is that he is showing his strength, laying down the law and that he is in control of his party.

Reminds me of Castro.

quote: And your comments about "what a nice guy" indicates you don't understand politics. How often do Canadians vote for parties that have a "nice guy" as a leader.

I like to vote for leaders who don't FIRE people who are running against them in a leadership race, to discourage people from doing so.

It smells of fascism, to a degree.

And your comments playing this down indicates you don't understand much of anything.

	03-06-2002 08:51									#87
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Oh my god. The NDP are using Harper's comments against him. They're not trying to help Harper pull his foot out of his mouth. They must be truely evil.

Asher, you truly amaze me.

Is there something in Alberta's water that makes CA supporters politically stupid?

	03-06-2002 08:52									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oh my god. The NDP are using Harper's comments against him. They're not trying to help Harper pull his foot out of his mouth. They must be truely evil. Asher, you truly amaze me. Is there something in Alberta's water that makes CA supporters politically stupid?

You really enjoy your strawmen, don't you?

I think the NDP are being incredibly stupid because all they ever do is b*tch and moan about how stupid everyone else is, and every time they get into power somewhere they f*ck it up in new ways every time. It's incredible.

I never said the NDP were evil, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped using NDP tactics by twisting people's words to try to win an argument.

	03-06-2002 08:57									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Hold on here. Suddenly Alberta is not important, where the Maritimes are?

You're the one saying no one cares about Alberta when it comes to federal politics, not me.

quote: Originally posted by Asher It's quite clear they're not going to vote for the CA anyway. Notice how they vote NDP and Liberal? They're too left wing. Even if the CA praised them for being the best people in the world they still wouldn't vote.

Brilliant political strategy. I suppose you write off the CA's chances in Ontario cause we all know that Ontarians voted Liberal during the past three or four federal elections. And of course, the Maritimes has always votes NDP in federal elections.

quote: Originally posted by Asher I like to vote for leaders who don't IRE people who are running against them in a leadership race, to discourage people from doing so.

Yes, we know how you conservatives prefer to spend your time fighting among each other rather than trying to form the next government.

	03-06-2002 09:01									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You're the one saying no one cares about Alberta when it comes to federal politics, not me.

You still don't understand.
You're setting a double standard here by saying it's okay for the liberals to give the shaft to Alberta, because the votes don't count. At the same time, you're saying it's not okay for anyone to give the shaft to the maritimes, even though their votes don't really count either.

Which is it?

At any rate, Harper's comments make it clear he wants to boost the Maritimes' economy, unlike Chretien's open comments and actions which neglect, alienate, and insult Alberta on a regular basis.

quote: I suppose you write off the CA's chances in Ontario cause we all know that Ontarians voted Liberal during the past three or four federal elections. And of course, the Maritimes has always votes NDP in federal elections.

A very sizable chunk voted for the CA even with a whacko like Day in control, and with the latest Liberal blunders more and more people will vote for the other parties as they're sick of the Liberals. It's inevitable.

quote: Yes, we know how you conservatives prefer to spend your time fighting among each other rather than trying to form the next government.

You do realize you're saying this at a time where there's articles out about the "Liberal civil war", and about how Chretien is firing his most competent people because he feels like it?

How fitting.