06-06-2002 12:23									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Asher At least the government's giving "Liberal" a bad name.

The only thing the bc liberals and the federal liberals share is the name. Their policies and biefs etc are completely different. the liberal party is basically the socrets with a new name.

	06-06-2002 12:24									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The provincial governments have been delegated sole control over mineral rights and do not have to share the control with the federal government. The provincial government can spend the mineral royalties as it sees fit, but who is the provincial government. It is the voice of all those who can vote. Since any Canadian can vote in a provincial election, provided they move to the province, which they are free to do, then the provincial governments are acting on behalf off all Canadians.

Sorry, but that's a really laughable semantic argument.

The province of Alberta can do whatever it wants with its resource revenue. If all of Canada moves to Alberta and votes to give it away, the second they move away we'll vote to keep it back to ourselves.

The provincial governments act on behalf of the residents of the provinces. It's that simple. Not all Canadians. The Federal government acts on behalf of all Canadians.

	06-06-2002 12:32									#153
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Interesting to point out the oil sands and all your power generating abilities came from the NEP funds. The time, at that time is what you need to look at to find why the NEP was put in place. Jobs and homes accross the country were being lost not just there. At that time for the country it was the right thing to do. I understand the narrow view you have been taught but reality is at that time it was a good move by Trudeau.

This reply defies nearly all attempts to respond. The use of blatant lies, misdirection, and... utter drivel are a wonderous contribution to the mountain of spew that has heretofore been observed in OT. But here goes...

The NEP, which sucked revenue out of a thriving energy sector paid for the development of that industry in the first place? Come again...

OK. Albertans are supposed to be happy that the federal government played an instrumental role in throwing our economy into a tail spin. And gave us the finger, literally, while doing so. But, it helped people elsewhere. Riiight. Let me know how well that plays where you're from when it happens to you.

View I have been taught? Listen junior, I lived through it. I didn't need to be taught anything. Kinda like you and your *experience* with gender equity. Do you enjoy having your concerns dismissed by others because they have not been where you have been? Didn't think so. How do you enjoy your narrow views? They only serve you, right?

	06-06-2002 12:34									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Sorry, but that's a really laughable semantic argument. The province of Alberta can do whatever it wants with its resource revenue. If all of Canada moves to Alberta and votes to give it away, the second they move away we'll vote to keep it back to ourselves. The provincial governments act on behalf of the residents of the provinces. It's that simple. Not all Canadians. The Federal government acts on behalf of all Canadians.

Thats not really true.

If the federal government can't get the money at "resource level" it just taxes the semi finished products, if it can't get it there it imposes tarrifs and duties etc on goods leaving/coming into the country.

	06-06-2002 12:37									#155
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*snip*

	06-06-2002 12:48									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Asher *snip*

whats that supposed to mean? I have taken economics.. basically if the fedal government wants to tax alberta's oil industry it will find a indirect way of doing it. Where there is a will there is a way, especially when your dealing with $$$.

	06-06-2002 12:49									#157
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I was just being stupid seeing as I've had no sleep for the past 48 hours so I edited it after I posted when I realized my brainfart, thus the *snip* as in I cut it out.

Edit: Sorry, that reads like a blackice post. Oh well.

	06-06-2002 13:07									#158
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It is rather sad that you do not understand the basic concepts of Canadian democracy. This is not a laughable semantic arguement. This is about democracy.

The initial question was who owns the oil. You claim it is Alberta. That is incorrect. The oil is in fact owned by the Canadian people.

The Canadian people have granted the government of Alberta the power to manage the untapped oil and the oil royalties. This power can be taken away if Canadians decide to do so. If the federal government and all the provinces, except Alberta, decided that mineral rights should be managed by the federal government, then that is what would happen.

The government of Alberta has no power to exclude other Canadians from enjoying the benefits of the oil revenues. Every Canadian has the right to move to Alberta.

The government of Alberta does not absolute power over how it spends the oil revenue. It can only do what the voters allow it to do. All Canadian voters have the right to vote in a provincial election, although they have to live in the province to exercise that right.

By contrast, people who are not Canadian citizens do not own the oil. They have no rights to the benefits created by the oil. They do not have a say in how the oil is managed.

So ultimately, the oil is owned by Canadians.

	06-06-2002 13:10									#159
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Perhaps I'm really really stupid, but I keep reading what the economics professor says and it's pretty clear to me:

quote: So the government of Alberta, having been decreed by the 1887 Order as the Crown owner of the resources within its boundaries, is not obliged to share any portion of the resource royalties it collects with the federal government. It is free to spend those billions of dollars in ways that benefit only the citizens of Alberta.

Alberta is the crown owner of the resources. Not Canada. They reliquished those rights. You seem to be saying Canada could take the resources back by passing legislation or something to undo the decree to give the resources back -- but that has not happen and will not happen if Canada knows what's good for itself.

quote: The government of Alberta has no power to exclude other Canadians from enjoying the benefits of the oil revenues. Every Canadian has the right to move to Alberta.

For the life of me I can't see how you see this as anything other than a poor semantic argument?

	06-06-2002 13:16									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Perhaps I'm really really stupid, but I keep reading what the economics professor says and it's pretty clear to me: Alberta is the crown owner of the resources. Not Canada. They reliquished those rights. You seem to be saying Canada could take the resources back by passing legislation or something to undo the decree to give the resources back -- but that has not happen and will not happen if Canada knows what's good for itself. For the life of me I can't see how you see this as anything other than a poor semantic argument?

I find it sad that a Canadian citizen does not understand the basics of Canadian governments.

	06-06-2002 13:16									#161
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Tingkai i am not sure what planet you live on, but last i checked canada is not a communist country. Alberta owns the land in alberta, not me, not anyone else in canada and not the federal government. The government of alberta can then sell off leases to allow for drilling of oil to oil companies etc and the oil companies then own the oil. Also i believe if someone in your family was born before 1930 and still alive, they have the mineral rights to the land they owned before 1930.

	06-06-2002 13:18									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I find it sad that a Canadian citizen does not understand the basics of Canadian governments.

You don't need to be so harsh on yourself.

I understand how it works, I just don't understand what you're saying.

Next thing you'll be telling me Canada owns the clothing on my back since if Canada and all of the provinces vote to remove private property rights they can.

	06-06-2002 13:19									#163
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Markusf: You're comments are even more disturbing. Do you not know the basic concepts of democracy?

	06-06-2002 13:20									#164
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Tingkai, at what point do you stop and analyze a situation where everyone else is wrong and you're the only one that's right?

	06-06-2002 13:21									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Markusf: You're comments are even more disturbing. Do you not know the basic concepts of democracy?

Learn to seperate theory from reality. IN case you haven't noticed canada isn't a democracy and niether is the USA.

	06-06-2002 13:22									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You don't need to be so harsh on yourself. I understand how it works, I just don't understand what you're saying. Next thing you'll be telling me Canada owns the clothing on my back since if Canada and all of the provinces vote to remove private property rights they can.

Asher you have clearly demonstrated that you do not understand the basic concepts of Canadian democracy.

And once again, you are using a rather poor analogy that doesn't work. Most people would have realized that they are making a fool of themselves, but you haven't quite figured out the concept.

	06-06-2002 13:23									#167
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Okay, Tingkai, whatever. Is that how you always try to debate things?

Say things that are pretty damn vague and contradictory then blame everyone else for being a fool about it?

	06-06-2002 13:23									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Tingkai, at what point do you stop and analyze a situation where everyone else is wrong and you're the only one that's right?

Asher: you need to get a hold of your ego. Just because you are wrong doesn't mean that everyone else holds the same wrong opinions.

	06-06-2002 13:24									#169
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Fact: Alberta owns the Crown rights to its mineral resources as per the 1930 decree and 1887 order.

Your theory: Canada owns the Crown rights, since Canadians may move to Alberta and vote.

	06-06-2002 13:25									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: you need to get a hold of your ego. Just because you are wrong doesn't mean that everyone else holds the same wrong opinions.

I'm welcome to the possibility that I am wrong but I've seen nothing to the contrary. Not even from your arguments!

If you want to prove me wrong you're going to have to give me some links which spell out "Canada owns Alberta's resources, not Alberta" because everything I've found says otherwise.

	06-06-2002 13:31									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Markusf: You're comments are even more disturbing. Do you not know the basic concepts of democracy?

Maybe he doesn't, but you seem to have communism down pat.

	06-06-2002 13:31									#172
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Oh my God, Tingkai! The Government of Alberta is also wrong!
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/com/RLA...Land+Access.htm

quote: Alberta's total land surface: 66,259,340 hectares Provincial land for which Alberta owns mineral rights: 53,580,954 hectares Appropriate and timely development of Alberta's petroleum and mineral resources sometimes requires negotiation of surface access to Crown lands where those resources are located. Exercised as addendums to tenure agreements for subsurface mineral rights on Crown lands, land access typically applies to areas where surface access may be 'significantly' affected because of an environmental or land use concern. Appropriate levels of surface access restrictions may be negotiated among several Crown agencies and departments with an interest in natural resources, including branches responsible for environmental protection and historical preservation.

As I'm reading it the Crown still owns the land, but not the sub-surface minerals. What am I missing?

And more:
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/com/Roo...orld+Energy.htm

quote: The Government of Alberta owns 80% of the mineral rights in the province. From this it receives land lease rentals, royalties and bonus payments. These payments were over $10 billion in the fiscal year 2000/01.

	06-06-2002 13:31									#173
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according to his logic next time quebec threatens to seperate, we can just tell them we own quebec and they aren't going anywhere unless the rest of canada has a referendum kicking quebec out of canada.

	06-06-2002 13:36									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Asher As I'm reading it the Crown still owns the land, but not the sub-surface minerals. What am I missing?

Its called oil leases. Every year there are big auctions which oil companies and others bid on land they want to explore/mine. I believe a lease goes for 25 years. If i remember right that means the oil company owns anything 6 feet under the ground. If you go and find diamonds in alberta, if you find them lieing around on top of the ground they are yours, but if you find them a few feet down they belong to the government.

	06-06-2002 13:40									#175
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This is really quite simple. What is a provincial government? The answer is provincial government are the representatives of Canadian citizens living in a specific province. Provincial governments are not the representatives of citizens of a province.

	06-06-2002 13:42									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Provincial governments are not the representatives of citizens of a province.

Man I'm stupid.
I keep thinking the provincial governments were elected by the citizens of the province, to represent them in provincial matters which are under the province's jurisdiction. In this case, the province owns the minerals (as I've shown over and over again), and thus since the citizens of the province are electing their provincial government to manage their provincial assets, I'd say the provincial governments are representing the citizens of the province.

Break down my logic for me and tell me where it goes wrong.

	06-06-2002 13:44									#177
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No. Actually not entirely. I know (knew) some homesteaders from the teens and 20's. They own all the minerals beneath the surface, because they hold the rights. Them, not you Tinkai.

Some of them are very rich. Struck oil. It's theirs, by all the laws of the land. After 1930 (or so) all the oil rights belong to the province, not the country Tingkai.

Let Ottawa try another NEP and we'll show the rest of Canada just how fast it could be irrelevant.

	06-06-2002 13:47									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This is really quite simple. What is a provincial government? The answer is provincial government are the representatives of Canadian citizens living in a specific province. Provincial governments are not the representatives of citizens of a province.

What are you smoking?

	06-06-2002 13:57									#179
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quote: Originally posted by markusf according to his logic next time quebec threatens to seperate, we can just tell them we own quebec and they aren't going anywhere unless the rest of canada has a referendum kicking quebec out of canada.

Actually that was a possibility until a Supreme Court of Canada ruling in 1998.

The Supreme Court ruled that if the seperatists won a referendum then the government of Quebec did not have the right to unilaterally separate from Canada. However, the federal government would have a political obligation to negotiate a separation agreement.

The Liberals proposed a bill dealing with this issue. I can't recall what happened to it.

	06-06-2002 13:59									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Man I'm stupid. I keep thinking the provincial governments were elected by the citizens of the province, to represent them in provincial matters which are under the province's jurisdiction. In this case, the province owns the minerals (as I've shown over and over again), and thus since the citizens of the province are electing their provincial government to manage their provincial assets, I'd say the provincial governments are representing the citizens of the province. Break down my logic for me and tell me where it goes wrong.

Simple. There is no legal entity call a citizen of Alberta. You are citizen of a country, not a province. Canadian citizens in Alberta are residents of that province.