05-06-2002 23:06									#31
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GP that hurts!

As to second-guessing the president....he knew he was going to be living in a glass house when he got elected...part of the package AND a national obsession.

-=Vel=-
(of course, a good argument can be made that he's doing his level best to darken the glass his house is made of, what with the squashing of the FBI investigations into the matter....)

	05-06-2002 23:09									#32
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If Ashcroft took the warning seriously enough to stop using commerical flights, then they considered it a real possibility. And, it was the Bush Administration itself that said they thought they were only going to be normal hijackings. No one forced them to say that. They could, instead, have said that they discounted the threat, which would be a lie since, at least, Ashcroft took them seriously. If he thought it was serious enough not to risk his own butt, why didn't he increase FBI anti-terrorism resources?

	05-06-2002 23:18									#33
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Please show me some prrof that Ashcroft stopped flying commercial because of OBL warnings. My experience is that kind of guys hate flying commercial, but it doesn't have anything to do with threat issues. (They are safer in commercial flights than in a Gulfstream.)

	05-06-2002 23:21									#34
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Didn't Bush's father force all Admin officials (with the exception of the P and VP) to use commerical flights? I thought that was a cost cutting rule.

Give me a little bit of time to look up the accusation against Ashcroft as I don't remember off the top of my head where I read it.

	05-06-2002 23:22									#35
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impeach him I say and keep the colonel

Maybe we can get Pat buchanan to be president

	05-06-2002 23:25									#36
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I think I'd vote for "Colonel Sanders" before I'd vote Buchanan...UGH....

The Shrub is the other side's revenge for Clinton...I shudder to think what comes next....

-=Vel=-

	05-06-2002 23:29									#37
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No Problem With New FBI Surveillance Guidelines, Scholar Says

WASHINGTON--The Justice Department is expected to announce today new guidelines giving greater latitude to FBI agents to monitor Internet sites, libraries, and religious institutions without first having to offer evidence of potential criminal activity. Roger Pilon, vice president for legal affairs at the Cato Institute and a former Justice Department official, had the following remarks:

"As reported in the press, the new FBI surveillance guidelines present no serious problems. Especially under post-September 11 circumstances, law enforcement monitoring of public places is simply good, pro-active police work that violates the rights of no one. The same is true for topical research not directly related to a specific crime, which the new guidelines will permit.

"Depending on how the work is conducted, there is always the potential for abuse, of course. But unless the new latitude leads to significant abuse, that potential should not preclude officials from taking an active role not simply in prosecuting but in preventing crime as well."

*****

Isn't the Cato Institute a Libertarian thing??? And yet, they see no problem with this?



-=Vel=-

	05-06-2002 23:33									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Maybe we can get Pat buchanan to be president

	05-06-2002 23:33									#39
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Abuses of the past we five minutes ago. This is now. We've moved beyond abusing our authority.

	05-06-2002 23:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan Another theory a classmate has hypothesized is that post 9/11, the governmental institutions are being granted overwhelming powers and my friends theory is that the current administration is using the war on terror to gain more powers to the government.....He says that they are turning into "Big Brother" by using the War On Terror as a smoke screen.

Just like Senator (Chancellor) Palpatine is doing with the republic. Stir up some trouble so the leader is granted "emergency" powers. Shameful.

	05-06-2002 23:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Just like Senator (Chancellor) Palpatine is doing with the republic. Stir up some trouble so the leader is granted "emergency" powers. Shameful.

LOL. Get out more. Besides, the U.S. Pres. doesn't have official emergency powers. The president can only do what the other branches of government (especially the Surpreme Court) allows him to do.

	05-06-2002 23:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer There might be a free speech issue here, DD. He is being punished by the government for speaking his mind...

In this case, I don't think his constitutional rights were infringed. FS allows individuals/orgs the ability to express their ideas and not be detained/imprisoned for them. It does not guarantee employment. Ideas expressed counter to the employers purpose are valid reasons for dismissal.

I have no arguement if it turns that way that there have been times when free speech was infringed vis-a-vis the sedition laws of WW1, I just don't thinkthis is one of them.

Realistically it comes down to using some common sense. I don't like a lot of what my employer past and present did (or for that matter some of things Bush does) but I would certainly know better than to go on public record stating so. Whats surprising to me is a career officer hadn't already learned those lessons or just chose to go ahead knowing full well the consequences. Whatsmore, if he knew the consequences, at least he could of come off a little more credible rather than sounding like a paranoid delusional.

OTOH, whistle blowing is another matter and hence the whistle blowing proviso used by the FBI field agent. Her complaints were couched within examples of mismanagement and were to be used for a lessons learned.

	05-06-2002 23:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist LOL. Get out more. Besides, the U.S. Pres. doesn't have official emergency powers. The president can only do what the other branches of government (especially the Surpreme Court) allows him to do.

And we all know Congress would never be stampeded into giving the executive broad new powers without even considering them. Oh, wait, they did that last fall with the "USA Patriot Act."

	06-06-2002 00:18									#44
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I think most congressmen passed that act as sort of a knee-jerk reaction without due consideration of the infringements on civil liberties- it was so soon after 9/11. In fact, it was a Michigan congressman, John Conyers, who cast one of few dissenting votes against it Hopefully , over time, the higher courts will start shooting down some of the provisions. In fact, it's starting to happen already in the case of immigrants being illegally detained.

Dave

	06-06-2002 00:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Just like Senator (Chancellor) Palpatine is doing with the republic. Stir up some trouble so the leader is granted "emergency" powers. Shameful

So you are saying that the UK is the Empire?

	06-06-2002 00:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 And we all know Congress would never be stampeded into giving the executive broad new powers without even considering them. Oh, wait, they did that last fall with the "USA Patriot Act."

No they wouldn't, not to the extent of allowing the executive branch to cancel the Constitution. Besides, even the Surpreme Court decides the constitutionality of acts and can strike them down. The President does not have true emergency powers.

	06-06-2002 00:45									#47
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Vel, what a link! Reminds me of a similar "conspiracy" newsletter I read years ago about the Nixon presidency.

On the officer in question, his serious lack of judgment in criticizing his commander-in-chief is bad enough, but what he said is worse in that the he jumped the ultimate conclusion that Bush deliberately permitted the attacks on United States. This is something that is currently under investigation, not something that we "know." I think there something seriously wrong with this gentleman. I don't think he should be allowed in the military let alone be a Colonel.

Last edited by Ned on 06-06-2002 at 01:21

	06-06-2002 00:48									#48
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Thanks guy...yeah....it's made the rounds a few times before, but I thought it was worth bringing up again...

-=Vel=-

	06-06-2002 15:26									#49
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Whoa, I just thought I'd bring up some discussions my classmates, friends and I talked about over the past coupla weeks. Well, I am a little biased against the U.S. current administration......but I still like America.

One other little debate we had was that Dubya's main reason for wanting to get rid of Saddam was that he (Saddam) insulted his father and Bush sr. couldn't get Hussein out of power. The whole "War on Terror" is another smoke screen to fulfill Bush jr.'s own agenda.

	06-06-2002 15:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan Whoa, I just thought I'd bring up some discussions my classmates, friends and I talked about over the past coupla weeks. Well, I am a little biased against the U.S. current administration......but I still like America. One other little debate we had was that Dubya's main reason for wanting to get rid of Saddam was that he (Saddam) insulted his father and Bush sr. couldn't get Hussein out of power. The whole "War on Terror" is another smoke screen to fulfill Bush jr.'s own agenda.

Franky: Could it be possible that the whole war on terror thing has something to do with what happened on Sept 11?

	06-06-2002 16:06									#51
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Whoa Spray, I'm just stating what others are saying about Dubya's actions. Even though I don't like Bush, I think he's doing a relatively good job trying to get rid of terrorism. But others in my class think its one big "Roswell/Area 51" conspiracy theory.

Myself, I think that he's doing the best he knows how to handle things. I don't think any person should go through making the decisions he's having to make right now.

I'm sorry if I sound "DOWN WITH INSTITUTION!" but I'm just trying to see what other people think about my classmate's idea's.

	06-06-2002 16:35									#52
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I must have misunderstood you then. I've been up all night sick and I have to head out on the road later today.

A person should not be called un American for pointing out problems in the goverment or being concerned about the possiblity of the goverment going too far. But many let their mind out pace the facts too often and it ends up that they think Bush allowed this to happen. Even a highjacking on American soil would have been disastrous to a president who protrayed himself as tough on crime and the defender of American values. Sure there were probably memos about possible terrorist attacks and there may have been breifings. But don't forget that without something concreate the Bush administration would have been accused of over reacting or simply using the threats to undermine our individual liberties by many of the same people who are now so outraged by this. Also dont' forget that many of the people complaing about the CIA and the FBI are the same people who would have cried bloody murder if they had cracked down before this happened.

It's pretty much the same people that wanted to limit the FBI and CIA before 9 -11 who are now complaining that they didn't do enough. The FBI has become an agency that everyone loves to hate. *much to the relief of the ATF*

	06-06-2002 16:50									#53
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Nod. Thanks for understanding me! Hope you feel better and have a safe road trip.

I agree that there are those people out there that are totally hypocritical. First they say, "You wanna take away our rights!" and when something happens, turn around and say, "Why didn't you try to do something???". These people make me sick.

I think that you also bring valid points about the CIA and FBI. These agencies have had a bad rap because of all the myth that goes around them. One agency does something wrong and everyone is quick to point out their faults. What people don't see is all the good deeds that they (the FBI & CIA) accomplish. People forget that the FBI has helped in solving numerous kidnappings and such....but bad news makes interesting news.

It sucks but that's how these agencies are portrayed in the media...

	06-06-2002 17:55									#54
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Its strange to me that some people here think that GWB is too dumb to tie his own shoes, but is capable of arranging of devious plot to boost his popularity and gain more presidential powers.

	06-06-2002 18:38									#55
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"Even a highjacking on American soil would have been disastrous to a president who protrayed himself as tough on crime and the defender of American values."

All a matter of blame-gaming and spin control (Clinton, democrats, civil rights advocates, and, of course, pacifist europeans in some way). If 9/11 wasn't desastrous for his reputation...

"but is capable of arranging of devious plot to boost his popularity and gain more presidential powers."

Government inertia does not require much plotting.

	06-06-2002 19:42									#56
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quote: Government inertia does not require much plotting

this is meaningless.

	06-06-2002 19:45									#57
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Not at all. A passive plot on tacit understanding not to do anything is a lot easier to achieve than an active plot requiring detailed planning.

I do not claim it happened. I only say it is a plausible possibility as far as a "normal" terror attack is concerned.

	06-06-2002 19:49									#58
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You know, Sprayber, there is a big difference between the FBI acting competently, and the FBI abusing Constitutionally protected freedoms. The Bush uber allis crowd seems to forget that it wasn't that the FBI didn't have the information that something big was going on, it was that they ignored it. There is a major difference between surveiling groups which have ties to suspected or known terrorists, and with spying on every Arab male.

For whatever reason, the FBI choose not to follow up on leads the anti-terorism unit was generating about possible threats. What pisses me off is the the FBI still had enough people to harrass and intimidate legitimate internal political dissent in the US, but had their head up their ass when while legitimately suspected terrorists were up to an awful lot of suspicious stuff.

SpenceH, just cuz I think Dubya is a moron doesn't mean I think his staff is. The people he has working for him are exceedingly smart. Which is not to say that I believe that there's a conspiracy on the part of the Administration, at least not yet. It remains to be seen what the Administration knew and when they knew it.

If, on the wild chance, they knew something was gonna happen, they may well have trusted in their ability to keep it secret, as the Bush Administration has been doing everything it can to limit any information since the week Bush took office. And they've done a pretty good job of it, defying court orders to turn over documents and the like. Even now they are defying a Congressional subpeona. Which is not to say that they knew something was up.

	06-06-2002 20:09									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx giving greater latitude to FBI agents to monitor Internet sites, libraries, and religious institutions without first having to offer evidence of potential criminal activity.

I just thought that I would mention something that wasn't made clear in your article Vel.

The new guidelines say that FBI agents now have the authority to enter public places and forums (ie internet sites, libraries, etc.) to observe, develop leads and investigate. Religious institutions aren't even mentioned in the change.

	06-06-2002 20:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Not at all. A passive plot on tacit understanding not to do anything is a lot easier to achieve than an active plot requiring detailed planning. I do not claim it happened. I only say it is a plausible possibility as far as a "normal" terror attack is concerned.

As a plausible possibility OK, its worth discussion, but not much more. The problem with a "tacit understanding not to do anything" is how many people will know about it this understanding. In this case you'd have to guess the cabinet, the national security advisor and senior staff, the higher ups in the intel world and FBI. Any operatives who collected the original information or those analysed it.

Its virtually impossible that GWB or those close enough to the president were given any information that could have been used to actually prevent the attacks and have them succesfully deny any knowledge. The government would have to be totally corrupt in order for that to happen. Its kind of like the OJ conspiracy, sure it could have happened but is it likely that so many people were corrupt.

Any failure has to lie with the coordination between the many many intel orgs and the capabilities of those who are supposed to be able to analyse the data and create accurate intelligence assesments that can be understood by those who are supposed to make the decisions.