07-06-2002 18:51									#31
	Support Apolyton

Cyclotron :
I am more intelligent than the AI of Civ3 (or at least I hope so ). Still, I will voluntaree do things that are counter-productive, or at least not beneficial. Not because I don't see it's bad for me, but because I feel it's just more right, or more natural, or more immersive to do so. What I regret is that the AI of Civ3 is too much about winning, and not as much about simulating human behavior.

Delfino :
Perhaps I made a poor choice of words. What I mean in "powergaming" is a way to play that only see about the results (win or loose, beneficial or detrimental) without considering the immersive and roleplaying sides.
More Diablo2 than Fallout, more Quake3 than Deus Ex.

	08-06-2002 13:03									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Akka le Vil

Please do not take your cumpliment away. Let me be a powergamer. I need that.

Now seriously, never played Diablo or Fallout but liked both Quake3 and DeusEx. Quake3 was to fast for me and I was only able to play in the lowest level. DeusEx is an excellent game and probably the most complete gaming experience I ever got out of the FPS genre. It is one of those games that sometimes you feel like going back to. I also have Max Payne but it never absorb me as much as DeuzEx.

all the best
carlos

	09-06-2002 08:22									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I have no time to read all the post, but if there is anything I can say about AI is it is Smart Enough to launch a multi pronged attack against me while I strugle to take over a city with 4 defenders. Apparently, 4 city units(defending a city) can destroy atacking force of 6 swordsman(vets) 2 knights(elites) 2 cavalry(vets) and 3 longbowman(vets) in one go.

And they do tend to gangbang the human player.

	09-06-2002 09:05									#34
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: I'm with vondrack... the AI civs are not cooperative, but instead act like a pack of dogs.

I agree as well. I've had several games where everyone was at peace for a long time, as if they were just waiting for the right moment. No alliances or anything . . . just waiting. Suddenly, someone declares war, a few battles are fought, and someone gains the upper hand. One by one, the other civs declare war against the losing civ (no alliances occurred if I remember correctly). The feeding frenzy continues until there is little left of of the victim. I recall two games where other civs were the "victims" and one game where I was the "victim". I should add that it was a rather fun game to lose!

	09-06-2002 11:53									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Chronus, the AI is playing smart. Declaring war on the losing civ for land/resource grab.

It's not really a complaint.

	09-06-2002 13:35									#36
	Re: AI really is not dumb in Civ3 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Just try asking yourself the key question: What would I do being them (my opponents)?

If I was them, my goal would be to increase my standing in the world order. If I was the 6th most powerful nation (out of 16) my next goal would be to become the 5th. I would not attempt to reach this goal by simply declairing war on the number 1 player who has more Elite tanks than I have units or cities and whom we currently have a trade agreement with and who has always traded fairly with me and lives next door to my capital. I'd probaly trade aggressively, and might start a war with someone half my size.

Rik

	09-06-2002 15:50									#37
	Re: Re: AI really is not dumb in Civ3 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Thinker If I was them, my goal would be to increase my standing in the world order. If I was the 6th most powerful nation (out of 16) my next goal would be to become the 5th. I would not attempt to reach this goal by simply declairing war on the number 1 player who has more Elite tanks than I have units or cities and whom we currently have a trade agreement with and who has always traded fairly with me and lives next door to my capital. I'd probaly trade aggressively, and might start a war with someone half my size. Rik

Yep, this is true, but only to an extent, as it somehow assumes that wars are waged between two opponents only.

However, I have never suggested you (or an AI civ) would/should be likely to declare a war to #1 under such circumstances. I was rather pointing to a more general guidelines that the AI civs appear to follow. And these do not interfere with what you say, I believe.

Consider the broader consequences of your strategy. What is then the goal for #2 civ (say, Babs, AI)? Being #1, right? Babs (#2) declare war to #1 (say, Greeks, also an AI civ). Then, what will #3 (say, me, the human) do? I may either declare war to Babs (#2), hoping that with some help from Greeks I would become the new #2... however that might be, IMHO, not a very good reasoning, since although I might actually become the new #2, the current leader (Greeks) would probably just got even stronger and might then be way too powerful for me to stand against... And although my short-term goal is to become #2, my long term is to finish the game as #1! Thus, I rather join Babs and hope that we both end the reign of Greeks, finishing with just about similar losses/gains. Then, after recovering from this war, I may try becoming #1 by fighting Babs.

You are, of course, right, that #6 will not be the one to declare war to #1... precisely said, it will not be the FIRST one to declare war... But may (and in fact, will) gladly join in once a coalition is formed by other civs.

Of course, this is just theory... in the real game, it depends on the geography, actual strengths of the civs involved, trades active etc. Many times, it's best to stay neutral and wait for the AI civs weaken themselves by warring one another... and to be honest, that is what I usually do (unless bribed with something really worthy... ).

My original post was to support the idea that the Civ3 AI is not dumb, as many state... and especially to oppose the idea that the AI civs work together from the very beginning to defeat the human player. The examples I gave were just that... examples of what I observed in my games and what seemed VERY logical, ABSOLUTELY NOT dumb from the AI civs, and effectively disproving the "secret AI plot" hypothesis.

	10-06-2002 00:30									#38
	AI & Space Race... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I just finished my game and I must say I found the AI to be to generalist not really aiming for victory...

Well there where some key happenings that helped me:
1. I got the Theroy of Evolution because some else finished Universal Suffrage first. That put me into the Leading Tech position.
2. I gave the Greeks the COmputers they demanded and prevented a war, that could have made my Democracy collapse.
3. Angry that France finished the SETI-Program 4 turns before I would have I changed it to the much cheaper Manhatten Project... But what did I look like when it was finished! It actually triggered a Golden Age for my Militaristic Civilization! With that boost I was unstoppable for the Space Race Victory...

However other Nations where much more powerful and could easyly have stopped my poorly defended Civilization... Instead they declared war on each other to make it even easier for me...

Next Game i'll probably play without that Victory type that the AI does not look at a favourable goal...

	10-06-2002 04:11									#39
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by delfino Akka le Vil Please do not take your cumpliment away. Let me be a powergamer. I need that.

Ok, ok. If you need it so bad, I won't be as cruel as to let you dieing for.
YOU ARE A POWERGAMER !
Now, feel better ?

quote: Now seriously, never played Diablo or Fallout but liked both Quake3 and DeusEx. Quake3 was to fast for me and I was only able to play in the lowest level. DeusEx is an excellent game and probably the most complete gaming experience I ever got out of the FPS genre. It is one of those games that sometimes you feel like going back to. I also have Max Payne but it never absorb me as much as DeuzEx. all the best carlos

Yes, and one of the reason why Deus Ex is more absorbing than Max Payne ?
In Max Payne, every enemy can see you come. You can't get them from behind, you can't surprise them, you can't sneak them.
The IA from Deus Ex is much "inferior" if you look at it : you can avoid a guard, sneak up to his back and stun him, they can miss you when they shoot. Still, it's much more immersive. And probably BECAUSE of these "imperfection" : enemies act more like a human. They are perhaps less efficient to kill you, but it allows you to use much more various ways to deal with them.