06-06-2002 05:14									#31
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very true. But like I said, I distrust modern feminism simply due to the outspoken nature of it's more hatemongerish elements. Call me crazy, but as a man, I can't help but be a little bit concerned by their "kill all men" proposals. I'm sure there are "good" feminists too of course.

	06-06-2002 06:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld That is what a patriarchy is and even though it's a masculine trait, it isn't always neccisarily limited to the male gender, nor does it mean that all males have to be like this.

You might think so, but I'm afraid you're way of your mark when you try to whitewash our commie-feminist heroine of the battle against Patriarchy and - in somewhat smaller terms - Capitalism.

This is, after all, the women who spent half of the latest party congress expounding on how all males exploit the "love force" of women. Really.

I guess you'll now come up with some amuzing interpretation of that, proving it to be a justified expression of the fight against the stultifying male oppression. In fact, I'm looking forward to it.

	06-06-2002 06:01									#33
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Im really getting concerned about the European extreme left.....to think that a basically, an anti-male party can gain so much popularity in a country such a sweden.....is...well.....disgusting

	06-06-2002 08:42									#34
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So she's seems to be a loon. It's not like the right is devoid of loons. Look at our Administration.

	06-06-2002 12:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I don't know anything about feminist movements, but I don't see this as being male vs female or some sort of "gender war". It's about patriarchy. The world we live in is built on a patriarchy that's been continuing for thousands of years - The land is divided into militant territories, all of which are ruled by "chieftans", who compete needlessly against eachother for no other reason then to comfort their own prides and egos, and to continue on some sort of bizzare tradition. As I said earlier - They use the world as a real-life playing field for their wargames and pissing contests. That is what a patriarchy is and even though it's a masculine trait, it isn't always neccisarily limited to the male gender, nor does it mean that all males have to be like this.

Did your mommy give you permission to write this?

	06-06-2002 12:34									#36
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Osweld : Not any conflict is needless or made up because of egos. I certainly feel that most global politics moves are made because of people's ambitions at succeeding at their office , But I rather doubt that most presidents feel like they own their countries. They surely don't play by the rules, and make the dirtiest things. Saying that they are making them just because they feel like it , is incorrect.

	06-06-2002 15:35									#37
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Well, Gudrun has always had a very weak grasp of reality... What amazes me is that 14% of Sweden is so incredibly dense as to vote for her... I guess a lot of it is pure greed, but still...

Se has attracted a lot of young, urban middle-class kiddies who are into Progressive thinking but start to realise that the things the state could afford to give their parents - free housing, cushy cultural work a.s.o. - isn't coming their way. The same demographics, basically, as the morons that tried to dismantle Gothenburg last summer and are now whining about the total unfairness of the fascist cops who put a stop to looting and arson.

Add up the feminists and all the non-working trash that stupid enough to think Vänsterpartiet is gonna keep providing them with their welfare checks while the Social Democrats sold out and you've got your 14%.

I'm grateful it isn't more, you know.

	06-06-2002 20:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Eurowiggy

Hey, that's the second term I coined here at 'Poly!

Edit: That is, one used by other people as well...

	06-06-2002 21:05									#39
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how about actually contributing to the discussion?

	06-06-2002 22:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Hey, that's the second term I coined here at 'Poly!

Eurowiggy is easier to write than moominparatrooper. It's sure to be a hit.

	06-06-2002 22:13									#41
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I was quite a fan of the book about those creatures as a kid .
Ironically their full name is "Moomin Troll" IIRC.

	06-06-2002 22:21									#42
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Contributing to the discussion Dal? Surely you are joking!

Actually, I just don't have the energy to get excited over stuff like that poem. And Che is very right in saying that there's no single feminist (or other) movement here, so it's hardly a victory for anyone to find a loonie somewhere in there.

Another Edit: and why on earth do you have Arafat as your avatar?

	06-06-2002 22:21									#43
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Yeah, Dalgetti, but only in Swedish...

	06-06-2002 22:26									#44
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Dal: Also in Finnish. And I believe in every other language, too.

Moomin troll indeed... why didn't I get that?

I wonder why that Japanese company that did those cartoons didn't take plots from those comics, for instance, where Moomins drank alcohol and took drugs. Those would have made for some interesting cartooning.

	06-06-2002 22:35									#45
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quote: Moomin troll indeed... why didn't I get that?

that was just lying on the surface , you know.

There is a comics series? I thought that this was an innocent looking kids book , not the underfunded highschool picture you portray.

Jaakko: It's to agitate and irritate. Mission accomplished.

	06-06-2002 22:43									#46
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There were comics, yes. They probably didn't spread outside Finland though. The alcohol use was mostly wine, and mostly by Moominpappa - although there were few rum smugglers in some stories. The drug thing is actually pretty weird - Moomins take some kind of substance with three-letter name and then just sit at a rock and stare at horizon for 24 hours. They didn't directly say it was drug but come ooon.

The comics and those books are much less cheerily dim and thus, better, anyhow. Damn those Japanese.

	06-06-2002 22:52									#47
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Here in Sweden the Momins were always pegged as brave entrepreneurs in the smuggling business - opposing the stultifying taxes of the state.

Great stuff.

	06-06-2002 23:09									#48
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*sigh* Where do I start?

Guys, this is eurowiggy posting here. Don't believe everything, or even anything he says. Gudrun Schyman is a sensible, centre-left politician on the right edge of Sweden's third largest party, and is heavily involved in the governing of the country right now. She's certainly not defending the Taliban regime. She's not a "heavy drinker" either- like so many other people she's genetically cursed with Alcoholism, but has been dry for nearly a decade now. Stop trying to throw pointless and slanderous dirt at her, eurowiggy. Oh, and please- there's a difference between "Communist Party" and "Party where members are allowed to be communists should they chose to do so".

Feminism, the pre-eminent political ideology that I and Gudrun Schyman share (I'm an active member of the Left Party, btw, so don't expect me to be impartial on this issue) does not profess "hatred towards men in general". It derides the power structure, The Patriarchy, whereby one group of individuals inherently have more power in society than another, based simply on the arbitrary factor of Gender. Feminism is probably among the most deep-reaching and thorough analytical foundations in political science today, and easily among the most important ones. The main thing it's done is killed off the last remaining pieces of Communism around, and pushed us squarely into the post-socialist era.

Guys, the "Communist Ideal" is dead. To ignore any other divisions in society other than the purely economic one is patently ridiculous. No real equality of any sort will ever be achieved if you say "**** it" to gender equality, racial equality, ethnic equality. And when communists try to bring these kinds of questions into their ideology it just turns embarassing. No, Capitalism is not the driving force behind gender repression. No, you can't get rid of racism by evening out the races into one mega-race. No, you can't achieve equality in all areas through uniformity. No, what benefits the working class does not always benefit other weaker groups and minorities, and may act in direct opposition to them. No, the planned economy won't work, can't work, because there is simply no way any one group can know everything, analyse every angle of everything, and adapt to change if it only looks at one set of interests.

In a feminist society power is shared by a new pluralism of identity groups, in a grand constitutional civic republican scheme where the plurality of opinions constantly provide fresh angles, fresh ideas to drive society forward. No one group is allowed to stifle all others, republican freedom is rigrously observed and the leading light that society strives for. A society where every identity group has freedom to help decide over society, and responsibility to see that no other group is quashed in the process. A society which constantly evolves through the changing groups thatr inhabit it and their changing, cross-influencing ideas. A society where difference, rather than uniformity, provides the basis for equality. I think that's a great ideal to be striving for.

	06-06-2002 23:26									#49
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No, Stefu. The Moomin comics has been widely spread in Sweden, I myself own all 10 volumes of the collected comics.

But unlike Eurowiggy, I´ve always considered Moomin trolls as a very anarchistic bunch. It´s all over the comics (maybe not in the books, I´m unsure).

And on-topic: Gudrun Schyman is perhaps not a loon, but she is certainly a very populistic left wing feminist. Vänsterpartiet as a whole is also very left-wing populist. They talk and talk and talk of lofty ideals with a lot of left wing feminst rethoric, but in action they support the capitalist system to the hilt.

The fact that they have 14% of the votes is a ****ing mystery, but people are quite stupid after all...

	06-06-2002 23:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X The fact that they have 14% of the votes is a ****ing mystery, but people are quite stupid after all...

This is the third time we agree. Is the world still out there?

	06-06-2002 23:56									#51
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I checked an hour ago, it was still there

	06-06-2002 23:59									#52
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quote: I´ve always considered Moomin trolls as a very anarchistic bunch. It´s all over the comics (maybe not in the books, I´m unsure).

Oh, yes. There's one story in Moominsummer Madness where Snufkin encounters a park with lots of signs prohibiting various activities, gets pissed off and tears the signs out. You can read a little excerpt here:

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cach...t&hl=en&ie=UTF8

(Original site's gone, so it's a Google cache. Ain't Google great? If link gives problems, copy-paste it.)

	07-06-2002 00:12									#53
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I somehow don't remember this in my kid's books.

	07-06-2002 00:14									#54
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Great excerpt Snufkin rules!

	07-06-2002 00:15									#55
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Okay, I searched the Usenet for information about infamous 'Moomins take drugs' comics. They're official comics, drawn by Tove's brother Lars. There's apparently one (apparently? Heck, I've read it and remember it!) where Moomins go to 'Torrelorca', tourist resort, go to this bohemian cafe and order Marijuana. The barkeep shushes them and then tells that marijuana is no longer in fashion and recommends CJB-tabs. Moomins then take CJB-tabs, sit on a rock and start watching sunset, and next panel reads "Week later" and the Moomins are still watching the sunset.

Ahh, children's comics. They don't make them like they used to.

	07-06-2002 00:22									#56
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there I was , quoting Snapcase's post , and answering to little pieces of it , and then it struck me . There is a starting question, that needs to be asked.

Did she , or did she not write this lovely little poem, Snapcase?

( that anti "heavy drinker" apologist note was rather funny , Snap. )

	07-06-2002 00:25									#57
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Stefu: I remember many stories from these books, despite I was a small child reading them , and it was over a decade ago. I guess that got stuck in the evil soviet censorship, for some reason.

	07-06-2002 00:37									#58
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It wasin't in a book, it was in a comic. Those old comics have apparently been, hm, stuck in the back shelf of libraries (Don't want those adorable little tykes gettin' correct impressions about their beloved Japanese cartoon characters!) but Finns can still check this link for verification. I know it looks like a crappy parody comic, but I've read this one when I was a child - trust me on this.

Dialogue translation:

(1) Moominpappa: Let's go. We don't seem to fit.
(1) Smaiden: This must be an opium den. Let me handle this.
(2) Smaiden: Butler! Four marijuanas!
(3) Hippie: Shh! There are cops everywhere!
(3) Hippie: Say "tea" or something!
(4) Smaiden: Butler! Four teas!
(5) Moomintroll: Why do they call marijuana "tea"?
(5) Smaiden: To fool police, of course.
(5) Moominmamma: This tastes like regular tea. Just a bit weak...
(6) Moominpappa: Well, I'll be. I feel stranger...
(7) Moominpappa: All kinds of wacky stuff comes to mind...
(8) Moominmamma: Dear, it is just tea. Indian.
(9) Moominpappa: Psst! Could you get us some "tea"?
(9) Hippie: Oh, no-one smokes that. Now you have to have LBJ-pills.
(10) Hippie: They are wonderful. They free the true us. Everyone uses them these days.
(10) Moominmamma: Oh.
(11) Moominmamma: Do you really think...
(11) Moominpappa: The real me is quite amusing.
(12) Moominpappa: These LBJ-pills are quite mild.
(12) Moominmamma: But they are a habit, like popcorn.
(13) Smaiden: Their surface is good.
(14) Moominpappa: They say the effect the soul, for a long time.
(15) Moominpappa: Do you think it's true?
(16) Moominpappa: These LBJ-pills make me completely irresponsible.
(16) Moomintroll: Yes, me too.
(17) Hippie: We better follow them.
(17) Hippie: Yes. They took half a kilo of them. They can do some pretty horrible things.
(18) Hippie: Don't be anxious. They'll get on soon enough.

...



I'm starting to get the feeling Lars was on something really weird when he draw that. My fragile little mind is warped, all right.

	07-06-2002 00:38									#59
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Just out of interest- is the poem a statement of political intent? Or just a poem?

You see, I once wrote a poem about hammering a pineapple up Robert Kilroy-Silk's arsehole, but I don't actually advocate it as a political stance.

	07-06-2002 00:44									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu It wasin't in a book, it was in a comic. Those old comics have apparently been, hm, stuck in the back shelf of libraries (Don't want those adorable little tykes gettin' correct impressions about their beloved Japanese cartoon characters!) but Finns can still check this link for verification. I know it looks like a crappy parody comic, but I've read this one when I was a child - trust me on this. [...] I'm starting to get the feeling Lars was on something really weird when he draw that. My fragile little mind is warped, all right.

Ahh, those were the days Besides, this the original Moomin. The japanese crap can kiss my snusmumrik