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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:20
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quote:
Organization Level - The overall level of organization for a province is determined by the level of organization of the citizens living there (see the section on Citizen Archetypes), modified by provincial improvements and roads. The only purpose that the organization level serves is to determine the percent chance of your citizens organizing themselves into a formal township. Note that towns can be razed by enemy troops acquiring the province or by your own troops at your orders, but do not "unbuild themselves." Note too that organizational level + the % of happy people in a province = the stability OF the province (1-stability% = chance that a province will Rebel if something happens to cause a rebellion check). |
I misinterpreted the concept of the "organizational level." I think the first concept doesn't have all that much to do with stability, so in addition to taxation rates, happiness, and organizational level, I suggest a "power" level for each archetype, which could vary between provinces, and based on province improvements.
The power level would have two properties:
1. The sum of all power levels would be 1.
2. The sum of all products between the power level and happiness for each archetype is the stability (that way, we keep the stability levels between 0 and 1).
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:20
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quote:
Surplus food is a good thing, because in addition to being the engine that drives your economy by keeping your people alive, food is also needed to move your troops. If you want to move the army, you must provide them provisions and supplies. One food per unit, per turn spent moving (stationary units are presumed to be forraging or buying their food from local sources, and need no help from you). Thus, moving a large army can be an expensive proposition. |
On the contrary, I'd say that having a large army is always an expensive proposition, regardless of whether it's moving. Massive armies have fallen apart before going off to battle because of such a phenomenon. Much, much more so if it's in enemy territory (i.e. a siege).
Perhaps we could have modifiers for each system. For instance:
1. If an army is in your territory, there is a .5 modifier for the food needed to supply it.
2. If an army is moving from your territory into another, there's no modifier.
3. If an army is in allied territory, there is no modifier.
4. If an army is moving in allied territory, there is a 1.5 modifier.
5. If an army is in enemy territory with supply connections to allied territory, there's a 3 modifier.
6. If an army is in enemy territory without supply connections to allied/your territory, there's a 3 + n modifier, where n is the number of provinces from the allied territory.
7. If moving in a situation as presented in 5, there's a 5 modifier.
8. If moving in a situation as presented in 6, there's a 5 + 2n modifier.
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:20
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Morning,
One idea about taming the rush beast and one more general idea/query, that I thought I'd throw out.
General idea/query. Will there be limits on the Archetypes that can work a particular job? As an example I would think that pretty much any sound bodied citizen could work the farms, but it would probably take an Academic to work in say a Mages Tower, or other research improvement. By the by, I agree with Ogie that an Academic archetype fits in better than the Conservative one.
Taming the rush beast. Relatively simple. Have the Province population split into two broad groups - children and old folk (say 33% of the population) and adults (66% is a big group - but a citizen counts as an adult at age 15-16). The Adults group is where the labour pool is drawn from and *normally* the group to which population growth rate percentages are applied, when calculating population changes in the Province. The Children and Elderly group still need feeding and are essential to a smooth running society (go figure  ), but cannot normally be put to work.
This social 'overhead' provides a first brake on rush expansion - its no longer as simple as taking over a province, putting everyone to work, conscripting troops to replace losses and moving on
The Adults group also takes the bulk of the damage, when the population drops due to war and invasion. Thus invading a province automatically causes a drop in the available workforce for that province. There could be an option to press-gang the children and elderly but this again is only a short term measure, I imagine they would be much less efficient as workers (say count as half a worker each), and the mortality rate for this forced labour would be fairly high.
Reducing the worker pool in an invaded province provides a second brake on rush expansion - the population needs to recover somewhat before the Province is much use to its new owner.
thoughts?
Rich.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Ramo - good idea re: power level, but it seems to me that if it's gonna vary based on prov improvements built and on a prov by prov basis in any case, then power level should be modelled into the attributes of the province itself, modified by the demographic info, rather than being an attribute of the archetype...am revising the societal model right now, taking that into account, as well as the "class" system you mentioned (am combining your idea with mine to see where it takes me....awesome idea! ).
Not sure re: the armies thing. I like the notion and will play with it in the context of the rest of the model....just not sure it'll add much to gameplay for the complexity it adds as well. For that reason, I've been tempted to chuck the whole food requirement on armies to streamline and simplify...the gold upkeep and a time-driven counter for accessing new pop points by the military should pretty well stall the rush game...'least I think so...(fingers crossed!)
Rich: In my head, I had already sorta gone that direction re: societal overhead....the population figures for the province are not the total population, but the number of able-bodied citizens out working. I had thought to make it more inclusive so we could do stuff like allowing infamous players to put the elderly and children to work, but figured there'd be a way to abstract that down the line. We're on the same page in that regard tho...
The notion of putting some kinna time-driven counter on being able to draft new military units from captured provinces...now that's where the goods are! I think that represents a simple, effective way to stall the rushers...will be adding that mechanic to the mix as I re-write and prepare to make a new thread (this time, with societal and economic models separated!)
-=Vel=-
(lookin' terribly busy at work as I do Candle'Bre stuff...lol)
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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D'oh! It occurred to me as I was sitting here drafting v1.1 of the societal model that I had not responded to ya, Og! LOL...No worries, I'm not sure *I* have fully digested it all yet either!....but I can't seem to shut off the flow of ideas coming from my head, so I'm riding the wave to see where it goes!
And, since I am now starting to draft the first revision of the societal model, I've taken out the conservatives and put in the academics...some other changes/additions include:
* - formulatic expressions for happiness/unhappiness
* - percentile driven happiness/unhappiness responses
* - new attribute for provinces - Power, corruption & banditry
* - new attributes for archetypes - classification (peasants, burghers, nobles), and expansions on likes, dislikes, and happiness/unhappiness responses
* - tie-in to the governmental policy screen sliders with full explanations
More soon! I'm back to hacking thru it!
-=Vel=-
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Micha
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Technical University of Ilmenau, Germany
Oct 2002
time: 06:20
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First of all: Great work! Considering how much work it was for me just to read these threads, it must have been efforts far beyond imagination to develope the game so far...
One thing I donŽt understand: why is a slaughterhouse more expensive than the fortification-level-three-upgrade? A castle will not only contain much more material, the building time will also be at least five times longer...
Following your invitation for a brainstorming I thought of something like a granary, which feeds your citizens during sieges. But when I read the combat thread, I found no siege system mentioned. So this is a suggestion to add a chance to support a sieged province with fresh troops trained far away of the battle, which arrived after enemy troops occupied the province. In real history, there has always been a siege before a city fell. Perhaps only level-2-or-higher fortified provinces must be sieged... Then a granary would be a welcome thing as it saves your citizens from starving for a couple of rounds. As you can imagine, no sieging army will let food caravans get to the enemy town, so the province is no longer connected to the imperial food stock. I can even think of upgrades for granaries, and a slider that sends X percent of not used food into a granary instead of adding it to the imperial food stockpile.
As many ideas I read about in these threads, the siege system is also partly taken from Europa Universalis 2, which in my opinion is a great game. Take its advantages and add all your complexity and fresh thinking and CandleŽBre will surely be the best game ever.
So far... Micha
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:20
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Hiya, Micha! Thanks for the comments
Not a full reply to your post, but some things to keep in mind: there are two versions under consideration when talking of CB. First of all, there is the free, 'simple' game, which will be the first to be available. In here, a number of simplifications will be done, one of which is that it won't have a full societal model, another is that there are only a few building types available, and not the more extreme things. AFAIK, the slaughterhouse won't be in this version, but is an idea for the complete version later on, which means that we aren't balancing it yet. It should cost less then a castle, though, that's for sure.
Siege weapons are being implemented, however there is no up to date information on 'poly available yet. A system has been proposed, and we're waiting on the implementation to be able to playtest it. The idea is that siege weapons will gradually decrease the fortification in a given province, to the point where it offers no further protection to your troops. So far, we don't have a rule that says you need siege weapons if you want to attack a province with a large fort in it, if you have a huge number of troops you can attack (knowing it will cost you more troops as the defenders are better protected).
Food consumption is something else that needs implementation before we can develop more of it, but you're right in that provinces under siege should not get food from other provinces, and either need to be selfsufficient, or need some kind of granary in place. Again, I'm uncertain how much of this will get into the free version, it's one of those things we really want in the game, but isn't a core priority at the moment. We're concentrating on having a combat model, a spell model, a fate engine, and a few basic concepts like honor, diplomacy & loyalty laid out... the full societal model will surely add to the complexity, but isn't one of these truely basic needs.
DeepO
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12-06-2002 01:12
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