10-06-2002 03:17									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The more pillars, the more chances for a ship to hit one.

Haven´t we established that fact already?

	10-06-2002 03:17									#32
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Put all the International Space Station budget, all that bridge budget, all the money being ploughed into NMD, all the money being spent on floating city boats, and put them into a Space Elevator and Orbital hotel.

	10-06-2002 03:23									#33
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I can get with that idea, but you still won't have enough money.

Maybe you'd have enough if you took the GDP of the US for a year...

	10-06-2002 03:25									#34
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I think US military budget for a year would suffice

	10-06-2002 03:25									#35
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And I hadn't realised the Straits were that deep. That's an impressive slope, from sea level to -1000 m in just a couple of kilometers...

Maybe you should just uild a massive land bridge with dredges.

	10-06-2002 03:27									#36
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That's only ~350 billion. Not even close to enough to fund research of strong enough materials for cable and then pay to launch all of it into orbit...

	10-06-2002 03:28									#37
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quote: Maybe you'd have enough if you took the GDP of the US for a year...

Suits me. They could record it as a TV program called "Can you live... as a third world country" and seel it to Europe to balance some of the cost.

	10-06-2002 03:29									#38
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OK, you´re talking ´bout the space station... I´m still on the bridge

	10-06-2002 03:29									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat . . . put them into a Space Elevator . . .

Are you talking about skystalks?? Skystalks won't work on Earth. The weight of skystalk streching from orbit down to the ground will overcome the tensile strength of even theoretical materials. (It would be possible to build a skystalk on Mars using carbon fibers or on our moon using materials with a lesser tensile strength.)

I don't think a Gibraltar Bridge will be built. The technological challenge is too greath, the cost is too enormous and the possible financial return is not attractive enough.

Let's just build giant catapaults and fling people across.

	10-06-2002 03:30									#40
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Heh, like Elbonian Airways...

	10-06-2002 03:32									#41
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quote: The weight of skystalk streching from orbit down to the ground will overcome the tensile strength of even theoretical materials.

Get a better theory...

	10-06-2002 03:39									#42
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The width and height of ships wouldn't be an issue. The world's tallest ship (water to top) is the Russian Barqe "Sedov" (a tall ship used to train naval cadets) whose main mast tops out 58 m from the water. In a year or so the Queen Mary 2 will be launched with a height of 62 m from the water and will take the crown. The widest is a cargo ship called the Sea World which, at 79 m wide, beats the USS Enterprise by 1 m.

	10-06-2002 03:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Get a better theory...

My own personal theory is to charge the skystalk with electromagnetism.

I remember in school seeing an experiment where a magnatized paperclip could be used to dangle about a foot-long length of paperclips. The tensile strength between those paperclips was zero...until magnatism was added. Maybe that would make a skystalk work.

The downside of using magnatism is that anyone with a metal plate in his head would be immediately stuck to the side of the elevator.

	10-06-2002 05:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler The downside of using magnatism is that anyone with a metal plate in his head would be immediately stuck to the side of the elevator.

Plus, I would have a problem with having my electrons reorganized; and I WON'T STAND FOR THAT!!


It really does seem to be a matter of, "Do we really need it?".

	10-06-2002 06:08									#45
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Its not possible. Too big.....too vulnerable. 11 miles? Would cost hundreds of billions. Now in the future, maybe when there are laser walkways. But not concievably for 100 years

	10-06-2002 06:40									#46
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Forget the bridge and feed the starving

	10-06-2002 06:44									#47
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How about a BIG catapult?

	10-06-2002 09:40									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Are you talking about skystalks?? Skystalks won't work on Earth. The weight of skystalk streching from orbit down to the ground will overcome the tensile strength of even theoretical materials

I'm picturing a theoretical material right now. It has a tensile strength/cross-sectional area 100 000 times greater than steel, and it weighs 1 kg/cubic meter.

I plan to build a space elevator for less than a million dollars...

	10-06-2002 10:02									#49
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Oh, Zkribbler:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/future-01f.html

I was a bit too lazy to integrate out the expression I got for tensile strength-to-weight requirements for a space elevator, so I did a quick search.

First off, as should be obvious to most of us,

quote: almost anything would work in principle, provided it was appropriately tapered: widest at geostationary orbit, where tension is highest, and narrowest at the extremities

Then, to demonstrate what the major problem is:

quote: A steel cable 1 millimetre across at ground level would have to be 40 billion kilometres in diameter at geostationary orbit

quote: Even Kevlar, which is stronger and lighter than steel, would need to widen to 16 metres, so you'd need 2 gigatonnes of the stuff

Finally, for a practical solution:

quote: For a cable of practical dimensions, you need a material with enormous tensile strength. NASA's estimates suggest a magic number of 62.5 gigapascals -- that's 30 times stronger than steel and 17 times stronger than Kevlar

This doesn't seem like that far away, given recent materials science research, which has made numerous breakthroughs on the nano-material front.

quote: These tiny, hollow cylinders made from sheets of hexagonally arranged carbon atoms exceed the tensile strength of steel by at least a factor of 100. Even conservative estimates place their strength at 130 gigapascals, which surpasses the magic number by a comfortable margin

Of course, the practical applications of nanofibres to mass-application have still to be determined, but these aren't insurmountable. Also, carbon nanotubules are, as far as most physicists are concerned, yesterday's news...

I particularly like this quote, given at the end of the article:

quote: So if all goes well, when can we expect such a structure to be built? Arthur C. Clarke was once asked this question and came up with the answer: "The space elevator will be built about 50 years after everyone stops laughing". They just stopped.

That jives with the timescale I'd vaguely envisioned: I might just live long enough to see it...

	10-06-2002 10:18									#50
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first of all, what's in Morraco? why would anyone get in their car on a saturday afternoon and drive to Morraco of all places?

secondly, the only way to build a bridge in this situation that would make sense and be cost effective, etc. is to make a floating bridge with rasing or stacking sections for ship traffic. but then this defeats the whole point of building a bridge there, or to have a marvel of engineering.

the only reason for this bridge to exist is so that terrorists have one more target to bomb IMO.

Last edited by morb on 10-06-2002 at 10:24

	10-06-2002 10:26									#51
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Why would anybody drive to PEI? It has a population of 140 000, IIRC...

I'm certain a Gibraltar bridge would have a heck of a lot more traffic than our Confed. bridge would...

	10-06-2002 10:29									#52
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Was the Confed Bridge a "make work" project from our lovely government?

	10-06-2002 10:36									#53
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PEI was guaranteed constant access to mainland under terms of joining Canada. The two giant ferries that provide it were about to pull a "Sea King" maneuver, unless replaced, and the bean counters figured out that it would be more economical to actually bite the bullet and buy a bridge now that would increase access and last for 75 years.

BTW, the bridge was contracted for under the Mulroney gov't, and construction started just as Chrétien was taking office...

http://www.confederationbridge.com/en/accueil/index.htm

They did it for a nice, round billion dollars.

	10-06-2002 11:28									#54
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The bridge proposal looks fascinating. Expensive, too, I imagine. Hmm ... what's the frequency of seaquakes in the Gilbratar area? It'd be a darn crying shame if the bridge were built, only to be knocked out of commissiion by a most ill-timed seaquake.

Gatekeeper

	10-06-2002 12:05									#55
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Why not a tunnel?

	10-06-2002 12:14									#56
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You mean a chunnel, Ned.

	10-06-2002 12:16									#57
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I don't know if it'd be called a chunnel, since it's not a channel it's being dug under, no?

	10-06-2002 13:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by morb first of all, what's in Morraco? why would anyone get in their car on a saturday afternoon and drive to Morraco of all places? secondly, the only way to build a bridge in this situation that would make sense and be cost effective, etc. is to make a floating bridge with rasing or stacking sections for ship traffic. but then this defeats the whole point of building a bridge there, or to have a marvel of engineering. the only reason for this bridge to exist is so that terrorists have one more target to bomb IMO.

True, the EU is presently doing all they can to shut africans out. A bridge would counteract that purpose...

It´s good to have visions, but they seldom come true. When they built the Öresund bridge between Sweden and Denmark, visionaries raved about a "Öresund region" that would integrate Denmark and Sweden. It would make commuting between countries possible and facilitate an integration of the two former archrivals boosting the economy in both countries.

Reality in the form of quarrel over taxes and stuff did put a spoke in the wheel however. So much for a "Öresund region"

The same will happen in Gibraltar-Morocco region IMO, even more so since Morocco is a third world country.

The visions they have for the bridge can be true, however. But that requires a owerthrow of the capitalist system, or at least a reform.

	10-06-2002 13:59									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper The bridge proposal looks fascinating. Expensive, too, I imagine. Hmm ... what's the frequency of seaquakes in the Gilbratar area? It'd be a darn crying shame if the bridge were built, only to be knocked out of commissiion by a most ill-timed seaquake. Gatekeeper

Seaquakes are non-existent AFAIK. The African Plate and The Eurasian Plate meet across the straits, but there´s no main fracture zone there (see pic). Thus it seems fairly stable IMO.

However, volcanism in this region has created giant linear volcanic ridges, notably those forming the Islands of S. Jorge and Pico in the Azores and the Canary islands. These are some of the largest such volcanic ridges actively forming anywhere on earth and represent an important mode of crustal formation, analogous to that observed at mid-ocean ridges.

This doesn´t affect the Gibraltar Strait though, geological conditions isn´t the biggest problem here.

	10-06-2002 14:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why not a tunnel?

There was some talk of a tunnel a few years ago between Spanish and Moroccan authorities. It didn´t go anywhere IIRC. But this tunnel would only be a railway tunnel due to the technical diificulties with venting exhauste fumes.

The tunnel would be better stuff for Hollywood catastrophe movies though