23-06-2002 11:18									#61
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It's now 1390, and I just canceled my alliances and made peace with Egypt in order to restore my access to spices. Alkis, you were right about war weariness not being a problem. After just a little land skirmishing at the beginning, the rest of our engagements were on the high seas. Each side lost two ironclads, but as best I remember, I came out ahead by a galleon, a galley, and a couple frigates. (And I'll bet the galley had troops on it.) Hardly an epic battle, of course, but still something to do besides micromanaging workers and figuring out what to rush buy where next.

One oddity I noticed is that AI transport ships have a propensity to stay still even in hostile situations if they don't have an escort. Why in the world would a galley not run when it just had its escorting frigate blown out from under it? With Egypt having Magellan's, it actually could have successfully kept its distance. As it was, I was able to bring in an uninjured ironclad for the kill.

Egypt took an Aztec city (a former Russian one on the southwestern island that I'd given them) and a Roman city during the war. I was able to get the Aztecs city back for them in the peace negotiations, but the Egyptians weren't desperate enough to give me the Roman one to give back.

While this was going on, I had something happen to me that's never happened before. A Russian city that had flipped back to them earlier in the game decided it would be better off under my rule after all. (Must have seen all the gold I've been throwing around building improvements in its neighbors.)

One more possibly interesting tidbit: when Paris finishes the Hoover Dam in another three turns, it will have more wonders built under German rule than it does wonders built under French rule. It already has Newton's and Smith's (I had to split Copernicus's and Newton's in different cities to make sure I got them both) in addition to the two wonders the French built there.

Nathan

	24-06-2002 08:45									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Catt France built an early wonder (maybe 2) in my game, but believe it or not, the Iroqoius and the Aztecs were actually the early wonder leaders (Pyramids, Oracle, Colossus, maybe more).

I was wrong -- I looked at a sav and Paris managed to build both the Pyramids and Great Library in my game too! (Although I was correct in remembering the Iroquois and Aztecs as early wonder machines.)

One thing I completely forgot to mention and that struck me as both (1) humorous and (2) bizarre -- we're all sick of the "Your people admire your achievements so much that they have offered to expand your palace" pop-ups, right? I got my first "palace expansion" in the 1800s AD! only about 10 turns before the game was over. I kept looking at my info box and wondering what in the heck normally goes between the "E" and the "H" -- I couldn't remember what it was until the pop-up came along.

Catt

	24-06-2002 11:55									#63
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WAR CORRESPONDENT.

I can now download PC .sav files, and look forward to the next tourney. I have read too many of the posts here to play this one, but from the look of some of your files, it had several things going against you: a sandwiched starting position, rough terrain all around, and - oddest of all - no nearby neighbors. To play this with a civ that isn't industrious, has no early UU, and lacks the comfort of religion, looks very daunting.

GLs (or their absence) played a big role in the games, but don't they always? What amazed me the most is that, starting from such an unpromising place, so many different strategies worked so effectively. Nathan taking out the French deserves special mention for its uniqueness, while Alexman's chariot-upgrade gambit with libraries for culture is brilliant... and tantalizingly close to what Arrian tried, too late. Sir Ralph, Alkis and DaveV stuck with their tried-and-true, and handled their strats to solid victories (Dave, I'm projecting). Catt, I probably would have followed your start (unless I'm confusing you with someone else): given those cows and rough outlying terrain, pumping out settlers seemed like the smartest way to start.

And then I would have probably taken a header. Again, I'm amazed at how many definitively different strategies were employed to good effect in an unusually difficult start.

	24-06-2002 15:21									#64
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Hehe, I liked the expression "tried-and-true". I thought that the fact I made my first real war with cavalries would imppress the other players but apparently everybody is satisfied with the way he plays.

On the other hand I tried the other players' tried and true. I experimented with horsemen rush, swordsmen rush and archer rush (in other games I mean). From my experience, with horsemen/swordsmen you always take casualties because the AI is already strong by that time.

The archer rush is very interesting but, suppose the AI sends a force and pillages your terrain. This could be a very serious blow. Fortunately the AI doesn't do that often, but it does pillage your resourses/luxuries tiles if you leave them unprotected. Suppose your rush is successful then you need a lot of time to consolidate your gains.

You can get a city or two but these are usually far away, not connected and full of corruption. They can defect too. Also, everybody hates you.

I have no words to describe how good it is to give tribute. Not only they leave you alone but your relations with them improve. The first who asked for a tribute in my game were the English. I gave in. Then the next turn they established an embassy, paying double the money I gave them! This has happened in other games too.

The most common mistake builders do is that they blindly build city improvements. Then they are unprotected and an attractive prey. Eventually they lose and they conclude that playing builder style isn't successful. I on the hand build an army, I am ready for war but yet I don't attack, unless it's highly profitable.

Sometimes it is. When an AI civ is beaten and runs out of offensive units he just builds garrisons. If you attack at this point you have no fear of a counter attack. The worst thing that can happen to you is lose some units. Unfortunately I wasn't paying attention and didn't realize in time that the English were badly beaten by the French. Otherwise I would have grabbed more land and cities from them.

I think we have said it all Next game? I suggest Monarch level but lets take a commercial civ to make it a little challenging. Arrian likes religious so the Indians may be an interesting choice.

	24-06-2002 16:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Alkis The archer rush is very interesting but, suppose the AI sends a force and pillages your terrain. This could be a very serious blow. Fortunately the AI doesn't do that often, but it does pillage your resourses/luxuries tiles if you leave them unprotected. Suppose your rush is successful then you need a lot of time to consolidate your gains.

I have never seen this happen. All the AI has to spare at this time, is usually a bunch of exploring Warriors, which may be far from you. When you are building settlers in your 3-4 cities, after you sent your force and before it arrived, and build then again a bunch of archers, you can easily deal with those. Strike short and hard. Make peace as soon as you see a counterattack, that could be dangerous. The AI has always been willing.

quote: You can get a city or two but these are usually far away, not connected and full of corruption. They can defect too. Also, everybody hates you.

The goal is not to gain cities, but to take them away from the AI, thus cutting their wings. Btw, enemy capitals usually make a formidable site for a FP, see my post in "Size matters". And if you declare war in time and don't violate treaties, the hatred won't lead to diplomatic penalties. I'm usually even able to sign RoP's with archer rush victims later.

quote: I have no words to describe how good it is to give tribute. Not only they leave you alone but your relations with them improve. The first who asked for a tribute in my game were the English. I gave in. Then the next turn they established an embassy, paying double the money I gave them! This has happened in other games too.

I concur. I gave the French twice tribute in my minitourney game. Once the usual 22 gold + territory map, and once Furs for 20 turns. But when the Russians asked in the early game, I refused, because my archer stack was already on the way. That was a mistake and made war too early. In the result, I succeeded to hit the Russians, but not as hard as I wanted. I failed to take their capital and took a size-2 city instead, which flipped back instantly. Oh well, at least I succeeded to raze a city and to kill 3(!) wandering settlers to fill my jungle force.

	24-06-2002 18:02									#66
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I admit it, I only used your archer rush on Deity level.

	24-06-2002 18:35									#67
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quote: Arrian and Theseus, can you please post a save where you abandoned the game. I am really very curious to see what a player like you considers a lost game. - Please

Sure thing, but I can't until Tuesday, or maybe Wednesday. I won't be home tonight and I have a softball game on Tuesday night, and we often go out after the game.

Alexman - great job! I like your strategy of ignoring temples and building libraries like mad. Did you eventually build temples later?

Oh, the power of a decent forbidden palace early in the game. *sigh*

-Arrian

	24-06-2002 18:42									#68
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Alkis: I tried it also only one time on deity . It was a mess. I had 1 spearman and 3 archers built, when I got attacked by Liz the Evil. I succeeded to push back the attack force and to make peace for tech. When I attacked 20 turns later, I faced swordsmen. I took their capital though (luckily, I admit), it had an iron source and was already connected. The rest of the game (it was just a tiny training game) I fought with swordsmen. I didn't build a single fastmover in that game, due to poor terrain.

	24-06-2002 19:19									#69
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Well score another one for France:

Had finished off the Russians, including capturing Moskba, and was getting caught up in technology, thanks to some good trades with the Egyptians and Romans, when dear old Joan showed up after a fast crossing throught England.

Nothing like having 20+ Riflemen and "Mouseketeers" show up on your front door step and have crudely forged eviction notices, and finding that nothing you have will kill a Rifleman in open ground. Lost my second oldest city and had no way to defend Berlin, which would have been their next stop. Game over around 1300AD. in about 10 turns for the Once almost Mighty German Monarchy...

Problem was I go sucked into fighting the Russians too early (1200 BC): insufficient forces to maintain the offensive. After taking a couple of Russian size 6 cities in the initial rush, I didn't have troops coming up fast enough to garrison them and keep the swordsmen and horsemen in the field. I also found that I had to set the taxes to 90% to maintain the army in the field.

The Russians had sent a huge group of Archers towards Berlin along the west coast of the map, and I was massing my army of 8 swordsmen, 4 archers and 5 horsemen in the middle. As a diversion I sent one horseman ahead as bait. I managed to pick off all of archers as they went straeaming back to try and pick off this one poor elite horseman who scouted almost the entire country before succuming to a lousy warrior. Iron Crosses for all the riders ! (posthumously of course).

I finally managed to Capture Moskba around 1000 AD. Unfortunately, keeping up production of units proved to be a problem: cities forever rioting when they gained a pop point. It was a major nuisance until the other CC's not on the main continent built a port to enable some luxury trading.

Well I'm hoping an early archer rush as Sir Ralph described will work in my favour this time, so I can pick the time and place(s) I want to fight. Like I said: this is a tough nut to crack.

	24-06-2002 20:10									#70
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Btw do you deliberately change the names of everything? "Mouseketeers", "Moskba" hehehe

	24-06-2002 20:16									#71
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Moskba is close to Moscow in cyrillic letters. "MOCKBA" that would be. But I don't know what a Mouseketeer is. Musketeer would be "Mushketyor" in Russian.

	24-06-2002 20:19									#72
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What do you think about my idea of starting a new game? I suggested Monarch level, Indians but I don't mind something different.

	24-06-2002 20:25									#73
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The "b" in the cyrilic alphabet is like "v" in latin. I like Moskva better than Moscow. Moskba on the other hand is really funny .

For some reason I feel I' m out of subject .

	24-06-2002 20:38									#74
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What about a thematic one, as I proposed before:

China, Monarch (not too hard)
7 preselected AI civs: Japan, Egypt or Persia, America, France, England, Russia, Germany
Standard, large continents (60% water), warm, normal, young (3 bill years)
Cultural, Diplomatic and Spacerace victories off.
Thema: Industrial and modern warfare.

Sounds like large invasions with infantry and tanks, marines, paratroopers, nukes, ..., fun ?

EDIT: And a rule: Spoilers are allowed after entering the industrial age! Sharing war concepts should add fun!

	24-06-2002 20:45									#75
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Sir Ralph - count me in. I could use some experience with modern warfare!

Arian - I did build temples, but they came after marketplaces. In some cities I buit a temple just so I can build a cathedral! After the university was completed, of course...

I think scientific civs are better off ignoring temples and using the luxury slider for happiness, especially if all cities are of similar size. It takes one commerce turned into entertainment to make one content citizen happy. That's the upkeep of a temple!

	24-06-2002 21:07									#76
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I'm in... Sir Ralph, why don;t you take a turn generating the new game?

	24-06-2002 21:13									#77
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I will! As soon as I get home.

	24-06-2002 21:44									#78
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DANG! LOL...I've not even finished the mop up of the LAST game....You guys are *fast!*

But yes! I'm game!

-=Vel=-

	24-06-2002 21:48									#79
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I guess I'll play, the down side being the question of when I'll get back to my current game. It's funny how much harder managing an empire can be than conquering one for a person unwilling to delegate authority. The neat thing about the German supercontinent is that with a courthouse, a police station, and WLTCD, every city on the continent can be at least a little bit productive. The down side of that, though, is that I have an entire huge continent of cities competing for my rush-building gold and for workers to improve their terrain and asking what to build next when they do finish something.

Speaking of the current game, I've more or less decided to see if I can get a cultural victory before one of the AIs can build a spaceship, and to do so while still pursuing my usual tech-for-luxuries deals. But the playing time involved is going to be considerable, although things should speed up once I finish the terrain improvements I'll need.

Nathan

	24-06-2002 22:02									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Alkis Btw do you deliberately change the names of everything? "Mouseketeers", "Moskba" hehehe

Alkis,

Just trying to channel some of the frustration cause by not being able to choke the s&*t out of a CC that so richly deserved it.

And I can't take credit for the Mouseketeers. Saw that one in another thread. Appropriate though.

As for the names, if hadn't been for Civ I, I would never have gotten interested in languages. I've managed to pick up a few (and some times more) useful phrases in languages like French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian... makes it more colourful when you can swear at them in their own language. And it's come in handy when I used to do tech support for an ISP: did one call all in French, and used to get Spanish only callers and I could at least pronounce the "No hablas espanol, por favor...." line that they gave us that told them to call a translation service.

And yes, I'm up for the next game. I'd even say that we could stick with Emperor level. I'm used to playing at Regent so this is a good learning experience.

After all, more sweat in training, less blood in battle.


D.

	24-06-2002 22:36									#81
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Arian - I did build temples, but they came after marketplaces. In some cities I buit a temple just so I can build a cathedral! After the university was completed, of course... I think scientific civs are better off ignoring temples and using the luxury slider for happiness, especially if all cities are of similar size. It takes one commerce turned into entertainment to make one content citizen happy. That's the upkeep of a temple!

Good job Alexman! I do the same things whenever the random civ generator gives me a scientific civ. Religious is great for many reasons (plenty of threads on that already), but when you see those 60 shield (and 2 culture) temples, its time to start building the 40 shield (and 3 culture) libraries.

As you point out, there are plenty of different ways to make one citizen content, and my own knee-jerk reaction to start a temple build as soon as reasonably possible in all new cities -- this from having played a lot of games as Egypt or Japanese -- has finally subsided. It's all about exploiting the traits your people enjoy!

Catt

	24-06-2002 22:50									#82
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Sir Ralph,

China, huh? Cool. I've been playing with them a lot lately.

archer rush... Archer Rush... ARCHER RUSH!

Oh, wait, the theme. Can I still beat the crap out of my immediate neighbors, and then attempt to set up an industrial age war with overseas civs?

-Arrian

	24-06-2002 23:35									#83
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Sure I will too.

	25-06-2002 01:52									#84
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Sorry boys but I' m not in. I hate wars in civ3, they are too random for my taste. And modern era warfare will take forever on my PC.

Have a nice time

	25-06-2002 02:02									#85
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Something off subject, why am I a chieftain while most of you are Kings?

	25-06-2002 02:03									#86
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I think I will do some magic to change it

Abra catabra abra catabra....

	25-06-2002 02:04									#87
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Lol my magic was successful, I am a Warlord now

	25-06-2002 02:12									#88
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Alkis,

It's post count. You get "promoted" after making a certain number of posts.

-Arrian

	25-06-2002 13:18									#89
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I know, Arrian, but I was at 98 posts and wanted something to post about (anything)

	27-06-2002 03:19									#90
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Well, for those interested, here is the saved game... which I consider to be pretty much untenable. Perhaps a great player could salvage it, but I don't think I can...

Attachment: manthisishardii.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).