30-06-2002 07:37									#31
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That's sort of disturbing, to say the least...

	30-06-2002 08:38									#32
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nm

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 30-06-2002 at 08:46

	30-06-2002 08:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer My old bosses gave me that book when I left the job and started med school. Good book, even if you're not into the gallows humor.

Yeah, but when actual "doctors in training" starting spewing an endless stream of quotes from it, all the while giggling like a troop of junior girl scouts it gets on your nerves. It's demoralizing to be working your buns off trying to make a difference with some very difficult patients while your juniors are running around with an attitude like kids at a country club....and you must just be "the help".

Of all the medical specialties Psychiatrists are the least likely to cure anyone.

	30-06-2002 15:18									#34
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It's very unsettling to read lines from you like that Doc, as it seems like it's Peter Sellers saying it.

Boris: Most people want nothing to do with killing, which is good, unfortunatly there are also a large number that have no problem with it, and some that really enjoy it.

I have seen people die from natual causes twice (once in a plane, guy had a heart attack), another time on the floor of the NYSE (Old guy collasped, they just moved him aside and kept trading till the strecher came), this seems to be worse then the other kind (won't go into that, but I seen it more then once), the un-natural kind, because the natural deaths have that look of fear on their faces, they know "this is it", and it scares the hell out of em.
Not pretty at all.

	30-06-2002 15:49									#35
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Med students are notiorious in that regard. Their way of coping, I guess. Most of them are in an age where it's important as heck to show how cool and unconcerned you are, or you lose face in front of your peers.

Last edited by moomin on 01-07-2002 at 15:19

	30-06-2002 17:40									#36
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Oh you hear all sorts of urban legends about med students

	30-06-2002 20:27									#37
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Unfortunately if the guy in the gym had a heart attack (as it appears) the shock was likely too late. Even well performed CPR is nowhere close to defibrilation when it comes to increasing survivability. I believe that the stats for survivability if shocked in the first 6 minutes after the attack are very high but then tail off. Thats why a LOT of buildings have the automatic machines.

Its unfortunate when this stuff happens and the people that continued their workouts were exhibiting extreme insensitivity.

	30-06-2002 20:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Of all the medical specialties Psychiatrists are the least likely to cure anyone.

Oddly enough, it was psychiatrists who gave me the book...

	30-06-2002 20:39									#39
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I worked at Edwards Hospital in Naperville, IL, maintaining their network and doing other computer related tasks. I routinely was in the ER fixing stuff. I've seen 7 people bite the dust. 6 heartattacks and 1 car accident victim. It was disturbing to me at first. But I don't consider death to be a bad thing necessarily. Death is the same as the state of your consciousness before birth. The effect of the death in the family/community is the sad part. I truly believe people who die go to a better place. Seeing suffering makes me more upset than death itself. I don't think I would have any problem in war. Three generations of my family on both sides fought in conflicts and served in the military. My grandfather on my mom's side said the first day of fighting is the worst. After that, you become a soldier.

	30-06-2002 20:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Oddly enough, it was psychiatrists who gave me the book...

The guy who wrote the book is a psychiatrist. In the ending he changes from medicine to psychiatry because psychiatrists "cure people". Today we know that the major psychiatric disorders like depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, the anxiety disorders are probably biological in etiology and therefore not curable with current technology. OTOH there are a wide variety of medical diseases that are curable.

	30-06-2002 20:52									#41
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Shrinks are usually screwed in the head. They go into it, to try to fix themselves. (My roomie divorced one.)

I dated several nurses. Last one, was on a ward that had very large death rate. Over 80%. Lots of liver patients, etc. SHe was kinda hardened to it. And was a big advocate of pulling the plug. (Bit too much if you ask me...used to scared me when her own family called her the death girl.) But I remember her coming up and crying when one patient who had been there for months finally passed.

	30-06-2002 20:53									#42
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what's your definition of "cure". You don't consider succesful lithium treatment to be a cure?

	01-07-2002 02:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Once I saw a seriously bruised guy. in an island on vacation there was a group of swedish (IIRC) teens in the next rooms of ours. one night after returning home late we saw on of them on the concret pavement. they apparently were getting drunk in their room and that guy had the unfortunate inspiration to jump off the window.... 2nd floor. he was still conscious but in a completel mess. i hope he lived. the helicopter came to take him to a mainland hospital.

hum, sounds like ios
there were some dudes who sucked on a watermelon a bit more than they should and once one guy died on the beach. another fell asleep on a cliff and then had a bad dream. how he got up there is anyone's guess.

my worst dead person experience is having to identify my aunt who jumped off the building. it took me a while...

	01-07-2002 05:32									#44
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LaRusso, it was Ios.

(party 'til you drop,, literally in some cases...)

	01-07-2002 05:42									#45
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BTW when were you there?
I was in the summer of err '95 IIRC...

	01-07-2002 06:16									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GP what's your definition of "cure". You don't consider succesful lithium treatment to be a cure?

Nope. It's only a cure if there's an end to treatment and the disease stays away in most patients. If you have to continue the treatment indefinitely then the disease can be said to be compensated, allieviated or even in remission, but it is not cured.

	01-07-2002 07:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by GP Those ****s continuting their workout need a boot in the ass. If they couldn't do anything helpful they should have left the room

Don't be too hard on them - that can be shock reaction or denial or both. Most people have no idea what to do in the event of a sudden death.

Same with the gallows humour of interns. Its a coping mechanism.

I've seen more than a few sudden deaths and you always feel useless, people act weird.

One of the saddest was a young guy who was having a routine vaccine shot. He went back to his office and then had some sort of allergic reaction and died suddenly. He slumped forward and looked like he asleep at his desk.

By the time he was found, he had already gone stiff

	01-07-2002 18:08									#48
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They fished a dead body out of the east river by my building a couple of weeks ago...eewwwww

	01-07-2002 21:41									#49
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW when were you there? I was in the summer of err '95 IIRC...

umm, let me see
summers of 91, 92, 92, 94, 95, 96, 97 and i am still alive
it used to be pretty cool way back then. i remember flashing our cyrillic serbian IDs to german tourists, shouting 'elliniki astynomia, no drink after 2 in the morning', confiscating all the booze they were drinking...oh, those were the days LOL

	02-07-2002 08:36									#50
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We were most of the time in the beach (nearly all of them we visited) and at the greek clubs which were run by the irish up in the proteyousa.

	02-07-2002 08:38									#51
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(the irish helpers were more drunk than the customers, it was a riot )

hint: from Ios you can go to the nearby folegandros island to spend an afternoon which has a completely different character (= family vacations) and it was like the invation of barbarians (=young party animal people) in a shire of utter serenity and calm vacations pupulated by middle agers.

they were afraid, very

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 02-07-2002 at 08:43

	02-07-2002 09:18									#52
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Has anyone here seen the film "Slacker"? (Not "Slackers" which came out this year, but the Linklater film) There is a scene where a woman is run over by a car, and a small crowd gathers around her trying to decide what they are supposed to do. There is a woman who is wearing 1980s era jogging attire, walkman etc. who jogs up to the group and keeps jogging in place the whole time as she gives not very useful advice and is obviously not going to dirty her hands doing a thing. It's a funny scene, and eerily like BG's experience.

One reason I don't like cities is that the disconnect between people is so large. You might find people in smaller towns who are in shock in an emergency and useless, but you won't often find people who are so used to ignoring the mass of humanity around them that they can ignore such an important event and refuse to show any respect at all. Interestingly this topic was the subject of the last Seinfeld episode (though IIRC it was a mugging, not a death), where the jaded New Yorkers were brought to justice in the hinterland, where the standard for caring about your neighbor is a good deal higher.

	03-07-2002 21:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 (the irish helpers were more drunk than the customers, it was a riot ) hint: from Ios you can go to the nearby folegandros island to spend an afternoon which has a completely different character (= family vacations) and it was like the invation of barbarians (=young party animal people) in a shire of utter serenity and calm vacations pupulated by middle agers. they were afraid, very

i know. when i went once to antiparos to recuperate, our attempt to 'mellow out' there was considered disturbing by local standards the last time i was at ios it was really boring. either that or i got old.

	03-07-2002 22:24									#54
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I've seen that before.
Massive cardiac arrest is definitely not as neat and clean as it is in the movies.
But, given all other options, I think that I'd pick that as my way to go...over very quickly, it seemed.
Sorry for the experience...but it will probably impact you for the better.

	04-07-2002 06:23									#55
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That reminds me - I saw a man drop dead one fine sunny morning in the queue to a skii lift. They pulled the guy out, did cpr, the ambulance guys came but he was pretty obviously beyond help. His friends just stood around hopelessly.

Nobody stopped shuffling forward to catch that skii lift - including me. It was a bit like the way wild herds watch lions devour one of their number.

	04-07-2002 06:46									#56
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Hmmm... I guess I'm just not sure what you guys think is the appropriate reaction. Should everyone in the immediate vicinity fall to their knees, light incense, and pray to God? If you can't do anything, you can't do anything, right? Standing around gawking at a man in his death throes isn't exactly being respectful either, is it? Or is it that when someone dies in your vacinity you should drop what you're doing and immediately become meditative and introspective?

Being that I've never been in the situation I'd sure like to know proper death etiquette.

	04-07-2002 09:09									#57
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Being that I've never been in the situation I'd sure like to know proper death etiquette.

That's the thing - in modern societies death is hidden so people don't know what to do.

	04-07-2002 09:16									#58
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Hmmm... I guess I'm just not sure what you guys think is the appropriate reaction. Should everyone in the immediate vicinity fall to their knees, light incense, and pray to God? If you can't do anything, you can't do anything, right? Standing around gawking at a man in his death throes isn't exactly being respectful either, is it? Or is it that when someone dies in your vacinity you should drop what you're doing and immediately become meditative and introspective? Being that I've never been in the situation I'd sure like to know proper death etiquette.

Well, in my situation, considering it was a confined room, the people just could have left. Or they could have at least stopped. It would have been respectful for the man's friend, who was right there helping the doctor with CPR. What would you think if a friend of yours was on the floor dying, and 5 feet away some woman is still chugging away on her stairmaster?

	04-07-2002 09:20									#59
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Well you don't actually know someone is dying - people collapse all the time.

	04-07-2002 10:00									#60
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso i know. when i went once to antiparos to recuperate, our attempt to 'mellow out' there was considered disturbing by local standards the last time i was at ios it was really boring. either that or i got old.

there were 7 of us when we went to Ios.

Noone knew eachother very much except that we all knew one guy who was sort of the connective link.

3 girls 4 guys.

by the time thge holidays were over there were 3 couples and the guy who organized it all was left with his d!ick in his hand (no it wasnt me )

Which made for the classic line that we said to him: make sure you organize more holidays and that you then leave us to enjoy them (he was pissed he was left alone )