04-07-2002 02:33									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Organization work costs money. Papers need to be printed, organizers sent on trips, convetions set up. Everything takes money, I was just broke for a very long time. But that was just an excuse. They really wanted me out for political reasons. I was part of a faction fight that was brewing to get Solidarity to be more active and have a public face. I was also going to attack the leadership for their reactionary stance during the Carey-Teamster debacle. Socialists supporting the government indeed!

So you were kicked out too... welcome to the club. I was a member of the oakland branch.

	04-07-2002 06:47									#32
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I'lll ask the question that I've asked many times before. Given the track record of communism and the seemly lack of concern that it's past representatives have demonostrated for the real welfare of the people, why should we give them any serious thought as an alternative to the system that we already have. I have no illusions that our current system is perfect. It is far from it. But why should we trade it in for s system that has time and time again failed to live up to it's goal. Or does the claim of equality simply mean equal misery for all.


I don't doubt that many of the rank and file members have a real desire to uplift humanity. But they allow their leadership to use the same line about people not really knowing what is good for them to justify gross brutality.

A question I would really like to ask the communists supporters is what is your opinion of the US constitution? Would you change it out of hand, pick what you like and throw out the rest, or keep it? It isn't a perfect document(it wasn't meant to be) but it's a damn far sight better then some vague promises someone makes while talking about the people. In my opinion, most communists are no better then the capitalist politicians that they claim to oppose. Lots of promises with few real ideas about how to achieve them.

	04-07-2002 07:07									#33
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capitalism and democracy have messed up to

the US was just lucky with it's early leaders

if communism was as lucky it would be as successful as the SU is today

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 07:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller capitalism and democracy have messed up to the US was just lucky with it's early leaders if communism was as lucky it would be as successful as the SU is today Jon Miller

Show me where I said that they hadn't. The question remains the same.

	04-07-2002 07:25									#35
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because it makes sense logically

and is more right and better for the people

we are headed in that direction anyway, it is just how long we take to get there and how much suffering occurs along the way

Jon Miller

	04-07-2002 08:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller because it makes sense logically and is more right and better for the people we are headed in that direction anyway, it is just how long we take to get there and how much suffering occurs along the way Jon Miller

The idea sounds good. But so far it hasn't been shown to work in practice on a large scale. Sure we have elements of it, but that is because practical people tweaked what we had already to include certain aspects to better care for the people. That's the whole point of compromise. That's why the system that we have is so much better. Your system only works if the people in charge are benign and very humble in their ambitions. What communist leaders have fit that description(and lived long enough to make a difference)? You want it all right now. And that is why communism fails. It does serve one purpose in that it keeps the current system on it's toes and more willing to be open to ideas.

Communism is most useful as a minority party that challenges the status quo. But if it ever takes power, it only brings misery.

	04-07-2002 08:17									#37
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Sprayber, I think it speaks volumes that not one single communist endorsed the bill of rights. They may claim to be in favor of the common man, but would strip him of every liberty and human right.

	04-07-2002 11:06									#38
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yes, ned, of course. yawn.

	04-07-2002 11:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sixchan If I had to pick, I'd rather have: STALINISM Which is a far cry from the Idealistic Communist I once was.

You hsould have your head examined.

	04-07-2002 11:57									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti as I've already said it to Sixchan, as long as one's being 'utilitarian' about the way for perfect society , I have no problem with it . However ,if he's getting any power , I'll be the guy with the sniper rifle, assassinating you, Sixchan .

I can see how you see communism as a variant of utilitarianism. Jeremy Bentham created utilitarianism as and idea for "the greatest good for the greatest number" and that sort of thing. Since the majority of people belong in the "working class", Communism seems like the perfect ideology. Unfortunately, when put into practice, Utilitarianism was extremely barbaric (i.e. the Panopticon Prison).

Communism is (IMHO) the best ideology out there...better than most other ideologies out there. Unfortunately, the application of it in real life has not met with much success due to "party leaders" not having altruistic motives behind their actions. Most seem to use communism as a crutch to catapult themselves into power, then turn the government into a tool to support their own greed.

.....But needless to say, I am still a devout believer in communism (even if I tend to lean toward the left) and hope one day we can all shed the wool from our eyes and eventually overcome the hardships put in place by the "ruling elite".

	04-07-2002 12:23									#41
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan Communism is (IMHO) the best ideology out there...better than most other ideologies out there. Unfortunately, the application of it in real life has not met with much success due to "party leaders" not having altruistic motives behind their actions. Most seem to use communism as a crutch to catapult themselves into power, then turn the government into a tool to support their own greed.

That's the whole problem Franky. What good is a system that is a good theory but doesn't work in the real world? Communism can only work in a world where people are perfect and not interested in personal power. It's not that all communists are evil. It's that they are so naive as to allow powerful charismatic people to use them to create power for themselves. Yeah the current system is not perfect and people are often hurt by it. But nothing that anyone here has said tells me that communism would be any better.


The constant insistence that communists only care about the people do not impress me in the least. Communism is much more like a religion then many of you would like to admit. It takes a tremoundous amout of faith to believe that your system is any better when real world example prove otherwise. Hell, you guys even have fights over dogma.

quote: .....But needless to say, I am still a devout believer in communism (even if I tend to lean toward the left) and hope one day we can all shed the wool from our eyes and eventually overcome the hardships put in place by the "ruling elite".

How about the rulling elite that comes from the communist party. You guys always say that it's only temporary. But there is always a reason to keep it around another generation. How many generations do you think it will take to erase the evil capitalist urges from the US? How many people are a threat to the paradise that you promise us? And what do you do with those threats? I think those are some questions you need to ask yourself before you go and support them.

	04-07-2002 12:42									#42
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Communism would work in a world where it was the only economic ideology. When forced to compete against capitalism, it fails quite convincingly.

	04-07-2002 13:19									#43
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Very true. For communism to serve everyone and make them happy, all the participants must be communists. Any capitalist, monarchist, republican or fascist can never be happy under a true communist government. If everyone learns from a giant war or something, ala WWIII in Star Trek (which results in everyone being communist), then sure, communism will work. Otherwise, something else needs to be tried. One thing that works in this situation is brainwashing, or as the communists put it, 're-education'. Something along the lines of 'The Republic', or 'Brave New World', would be in order, though that would more serve my goals rather than the goals of the Democoms.

	04-07-2002 14:51									#44
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education is essential, and as the soviet union proved by the way, it can be easily achieved. after the war ended , a generation of young people that survived the war ,and lived in the soviet union for their entire lives , were ready to build and to create. However , this was met by an uncaring government that was cold to their feelings, and was immersed in itself.

	04-07-2002 15:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I couldn't have said it better. Welcome Comrade Strates!

Except wrt to Chinese history

	04-07-2002 15:14									#46
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Sprayber
I'lll ask the question that I've asked many times before. Given the track record of communism and the seemly lack of concern that it's past representatives have demonostrated for the real welfare of the people, why should we give them any serious thought as an alternative to the system that we already have.[/qoute]

First of all, capitalism has a lot more failure cases. In fact, the failure rate of capitalism is appallingly high, yet you still endorse it. Why?

Secondly, what do you mean by "real welfare?"

Thirdly, the sort of Capitalism we see today is not pure (laissez-faire) Capitalism. Pure Capitalism does not work.

	04-07-2002 20:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Saras You hsould have your head examined.

Well, he admitted to being a fascist. So...

	04-07-2002 21:28									#48
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On the bright side, it's not Kimism!

	04-07-2002 21:39									#49
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Man, your bright side is so dark it's hard to tell

	04-07-2002 22:05									#50
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*heavy breathing*
[sixchan is wearing a tacky cereal box painted black as a helmet, with a black bedsheet as a cape]

Saras, I am your mother. Come with me...to the dark side...join me on the extreme right.

	04-07-2002 23:31									#51
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quote: Given the track record of communism and the seemly lack of concern that it's past representatives have demonostrated for the real welfare of the people

Well the NEP period of the Soviet Union was highly successful (che has heart attack after reading Imran said something good about Communism ). It depends on what form of communism you are talking about. The NEP DID have some private property, however, the organizations were controlled by economic democracy. Basically it was a form of capitalism, just that corporations were controlled by the workers and their voting power. That kind of communism appeals to me much more than the rest.

	04-07-2002 23:47									#52
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Like if the workers are all equal shareholders in the company? So, it is technically communism with a capitalist free market! The two aren't as unreconcilable as many believe!

	05-07-2002 00:36									#53
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"Like if the workers are all equal shareholders in the company? So, it is technically communism with a capitalist free market! The two aren't as unreconcilable as many believe"

This is a good middle middle-ground. I definately would like somthing like this. Not only does it further enrich me, as a worker. It doesnt destroy my job and kill my boss. Nor does it in anyway restrict competition.

Oh and there is already private companys out there like this. Check out UPS and Ben and Jerry's icecream. It works atleast. If you worked with UPS in 1960's, you have a nice retirement nestegg of 500,000$ +.

	05-07-2002 00:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "Like if the workers are all equal shareholders in the company? So, it is technically communism with a capitalist free market! The two aren't as unreconcilable as many believe" This is a good middle middle-ground. I definately would like somthing like this. Not only does it further enrich me, as a worker. It doesnt destroy my job and kill my boss. Nor does it in anyway restrict competition. Oh and there is already private companys out there like this. Check out UPS and Ben and Jerry's icecream. It works atleast. If you worked with UPS in 1960's, you have a nice retirement nestegg of 500,000$ +.

also look at Enron... they have a nestegg of inflated funds...

	05-07-2002 00:56									#55
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"also look at Enron... they have a nestegg of inflated funds"

Good point, but Enron's employees knew there business was going down. Look at what they did? Traded Surplus energy! That in itself should of been illegal. there should of been policing.

As for Ben and jerrys and UPS. I recommend you read about there worker-friendly enviorment before you compare them to a bunch of slimeballs the likes of Enron and Worldcom.

	05-07-2002 01:01									#56
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Well, it works! When you want Ice Cream, where do you go? Ben & Jerry's!

We used to have a Ben & Jerry's in Glasgow, but they closed it and put in a sandwich bar. We have a little America type street, and that's where it was. We have a coffee shop, a Burger King, A pizza parlor called 'little italy', and of course, it wouldn't be an American street without...STARBUCKS!

	05-07-2002 01:26									#57
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quote: Like if the workers are all equal shareholders in the company? So, it is technically communism with a capitalist free market! The two aren't as unreconcilable as many believe!

Well, it isn't really a middle ground. It IS communism, or well, a form of it. Worker democracy is a very old communist ideal. Maybe it'd be better to call it socialist, though in this time and age, one wonders if any of the terms actually mean anything.

	05-07-2002 01:36									#58
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I believe it is called Guild Socialism or Council Communism. That's what it says on the Red Vocab page.

quote: COUNCIL COMMUNISM: Form of Leninism; also referred to as "Luxemburgism". It is a theory developed upon by Rosa Luxemburg and other founders of the German Spartakus Bund, which would later become the German Communist Party. Council Communism holds onto most of the traditional views of Leninism, including the necessity of insurrection against the bourgeois capitalist state and world revolution. Where it breaks with traditional Leninism is on the issue of economic organization after the revolution. Leninism sought a centralized "dictatorship of the proletariat", but Council Communists sought a less-centralized alternative. They felt that each industry would be run by a workers’ council and this decentralized workers’ government would be managed by an executive council. Luxemburgism never was attempted in the real world, and its ideas were later shadowed by the battle between Stalinism and Trotskyism. However, most Trotskyist organizations at least give credit to the ideas of Rosa Luxemburg. These organizations include Solidarity and Socialist Action.

quote: GUILD SOCIALISM: Belief that, whenever socialism is controlled by the few within the government, it won't work. Instead, the means of production should be controlled by the workers in a guild format. These guilds would be democratically run and organized efficiently. During the early part of the twentieth century, Guild Socialism was quite prominent within the labor force of Britain. Perhaps the most well-known populizer at the time was G.D.H. Cole. In the twenties, however, Guild Socialism disappeared and was later replaced by the theories of the Labour Party. The ideas of Guild Socialism have recently been incorporated into Libertarian Socialism.

	05-07-2002 01:53									#59
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Shi,

Nazism(actually a form of communism because it's national socialism) = EVIL

Hell no, my dear friend

	05-07-2002 04:05									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Given the track record of communism and the seemly lack of concern that it's past representatives have demonostrated for the real welfare of the people Well the NEP period of the Soviet Union was highly successful (che has heart attack after reading Imran said something good about Communism ). It depends on what form of communism you are talking about. The NEP DID have some private property, however, the organizations were controlled by economic democracy. Basically it was a form of capitalism, just that corporations were controlled by the workers and their voting power. That kind of communism appeals to me much more than the rest.

I think this is the form communism must take to be successful. Combining the worker controlled corporation with the dynamic elements of a market economy. Like NEP or Jugoslavia.

Sixchan, that´s really my form of communism (well, one of them...)