04-07-2002 00:08									#31
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You're killing us just describing it. Please stop.

	04-07-2002 00:26									#32
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Aren't you guys being a bit melodramatic, getting yourselves off like that from some nutbag's ravings? Do you do that everytime you find a moron in the world? Then again, that's exactly what establishments like CNS News count on...

The only thing I find interesting is the way Lincoln projects Singer's views into atheism in general.

	04-07-2002 00:27									#33
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quote: Eh? What's that got to do with anything Stefu?

Umm... something?

	04-07-2002 00:31									#34
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All show no go huh?

	04-07-2002 00:35									#35
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Bad title, Lincoln. It should have been "Atheists promote sex with dogs".

	04-07-2002 00:37									#36
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better than with children.

	04-07-2002 00:42									#37
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Jaakko, as I said, The rant was targetted at the animal rights activists and sympths, that I know support this kind of thinking ( www.vhemt.org ). The fact that Lincoln has a hidden agenda of counter-trolling mobius has nothing to do with that.

	04-07-2002 00:44									#38
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Interestingly enough, Barry Clausen comes across as a bit of a loony in that excerpt. I suppose that's balanced reporting- make both sides look ridiculous.

	04-07-2002 04:34									#39
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I'd rather kill an animal than abort a baby, so there.

But if YOU want to abort a baby and at the same time you proclaim animal "rights" (?), you can do it, as long as you don't force me to watch it.

	04-07-2002 05:42									#40
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Ahh, it's good to see that nutcases permeate all human society, and cross all socio-economic and cultural boundaries!

Don't you just love exponential reasoning! "I like steaks, so all animals must be eaten!" or "people are greedy for money, so let's burn all money!" or "the bible says adultery is a sin, so women raped against their will by men who are not their husbands must be STONED TO DEATH!!" And i don't mean on the wacky green stuff!

Exponential reasoning ultimately ends in absurd conclusions, so believe in common sense, i say! It's the only domain to exclude delusional nutcases, so i say go with it

	04-07-2002 06:48									#41
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I'm not against animal testing if it is productive. Chegitz made a good comment to the effect of "what's the point?". I'm also Pro-Choice, and not entirely against euthenizing a deformed baby. Although, I would support an adoption/welfare system and would only support making that illegal if there was a system in place to care for the kids.

	04-07-2002 07:25									#42
	Re: Evil Christians kill animals while enlightened Atheist kills babies Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Singer defended his previous writings that humans and nonhumans can have "mutually satisfying" sexual relationships as long as they are consensual. When asked by CNSNews.com how an animal can consent to sexual contact with a human, he replied, "Your dog can show you when he or she wants to go for a walk and equally for nonviolent sexual contact, your dog or whatever else it is can show you whether he or she wants to engage in a certain kind of contact."

What if your dog shows you he wants to go out for some violent sexual contact? What about that? Suppose your dog wants to go out for an evening of a little of the good old "ultra-violence"?

	04-07-2002 07:52									#43
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Better than enlightened Christians shooting adults to protect embryoes.

	04-07-2002 07:58									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The moral standard of atheism is called survival of the fittest.

Oh, kiss my pale, overworked ass. Lincoln, what you don't know about atheism could fill the Great Pyramid.

I am so ****ing sick of being accused of having no morals because I'm an atheist. That's complete horseshit, and you know it.

	04-07-2002 08:02									#45
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It's called a counter-troll, Guy.

	04-07-2002 08:05									#46
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God is the Christians' reason for morals.

Atheists don't need God to have morals.

	04-07-2002 08:07									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's called a counter-troll, Guy.

Bah, I barely have time to read the board anymore. Counter-troll or not, statements like that need to be called out on the carpet and excoriated.

	04-07-2002 08:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Counter-troll or not, statements like that need to be called out on the carpet and excoriated.

It's no worse than this, "Of course if God existed, it would have been a mere formality to change a mid air disaster into a near miss - after all, what did those 52 Children do against him?," in terms of poor reasoning.

	04-07-2002 08:20									#49
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You certainly won't get a debate from me. I don't particularly see the need to troll all atheists in retaliation, when he could simply (and rightly) upbraid the offending jackass and kindly leave the rest of us bloody well out of it.

	04-07-2002 08:21									#50
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"Where was God when I needed a friend?
Where was God when I came to an end?
Where was God when I lost my mind?
Where was God when I can't find?
[...]
Where was love when I felt like hate?
Where was hate when I felt like love?
Where were you when you said you'd be there?
Where was the faith, when I said I was scared?
[...]
Tell me what you believe, I'll tell you what you should see;
I don't know who to trust,
my heart is filled with disgust;
[...]
Ladies and gentleman! May I have your attention?
Are you ready for the joke?
Are you ready for the great deception?
GOD!!
Tell me what you believe...
GOD!!
Tell me what you believe...
GOD!!
[...]"

--Drowning Pool "Sermon"

	04-07-2002 08:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's no worse than this, "Of course if God existed, it would have been a mere formality to change a mid air disaster into a near miss - after all, what did those 52 Children do against him?," in terms of poor reasoning.

Of course it is. Lincoln's pathetic attempt is infinitely worse than Mobius's, since God is infinitely more powerful than humans. Besides, He is perfect.

	04-07-2002 13:14									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's no worse than this, "Of course if God existed, it would have been a mere formality to change a mid air disaster into a near miss - after all, what did those 52 Children do against him?," in terms of poor reasoning.

However, the Problem of Evil / Problem of Suffering is still a good argument against the existence of a God who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Christian theologians have been wrestling with it for 2000 years.

Whereas "I know an atheist who's a nutcase" is not a good argument against atheism. I don't think any atheistic philosophers will be losing sleep over it.

	04-07-2002 13:28									#53
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I know very few people I wouldn't classify as nutcases. The ironic thing is that they are atheists who sing catholic and protestant sectarian songs. Which personally I find both hilarious and disgusting at the same time. Not of course to say that the theists who sing these songs are any better.

	04-07-2002 16:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Oh, kiss my pale, overworked ass. Lincoln, what you don't know about atheism could fill the Great Pyramid. I am so ****ing sick of being accused of having no morals because I'm an atheist. That's complete horseshit, and you know it.

I did not accuse atheists of not having morals. I said that the standard of atheism is survival of the fittest. People can believe whatever they want, and do good or evil for whatever reason that they choose. But in trying to form a standard of morality that can logically endure throughout generations the Christian bases his morality on the words of Jesus, i.e., "Love your neighbor as yourself."

On the other hand, one who believes that humans are simply animals with no higher purpose has only one foundation for his morality. That foundation is called survival of the fittest. He can squirm all he wants and he may very well be a nice person but his moral position cannot be sustained. It is built upon the shifting sand of the struggle for survival. And each succeeding generation can determine what exactly it does take to survive. In other words you all may as well get on the band wagon behind Singer or admit that your morality is based upon the justification that exists only in your mind -- or the mind of whomever you choose to follow.

	04-07-2002 17:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti troll , or no troll , this singer guy is an ******* of the first degree , and given the chance , I would definetly kick his ass , in the most outrageous, sadistic, and immoral way I could. I'd force him to eat a baby lamb alive in one piece , and then I'll sexually abuse him with a dried up genitalia of an elephant. I'd make him eat the **** of thousands of baboons, and then , to contrast it , make him choke on some industrial waste. I'll force him to tie his balls to a prehistoric giant bird, and then shoot a pistol up in the air , so he would fly up , tied by his nuts. I'd poke his eye off, and then pull it out , dragging the optical nerve as I go. then, I'd melt a plastic phone calling card , and place the melted plastic all over his optical nerve, while simultaneously orally raping him with a hot poker , that would come right out of his *******.

Heck, Dal, it's bad for your health to quench your frustrations like this. Don't hold back! Tell us how you really feel!

	04-07-2002 17:38									#56
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quote: the standard of atheism is survival of the fittest. People can believe whatever they want, and do good or evil for whatever reason that they choose. But in trying to form a standard of morality that can logically endure throughout generations the Christian bases his morality on the words of Jesus, i.e., "Love your neighbor as yourself"

I'm an atheist, but I base my morality on those words as well (or equally fittingly, the Golden Rule).

Think of it as philosophy meets game theory...

	04-07-2002 18:01									#57
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You can't really argue with someone who bases his life on the Golden Rule.

	04-07-2002 18:11									#58
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Atheism is the belief that there are no gods. It doesn't have a moral standard, just as the belief that there are no leprechauns doesn't have a moral standard!

Most individual atheists (in the Western nations, at least) use Metaphysical Naturalism as a worldview and Secular Humanism as a moral code.

I don't see how "do no harm, except to prevent a greater harm" is inherently evil, or can reasonably be twisted into "survival of the fittest". You appear to be confusing the stance of atheism, the worldview of metaphysical naturalism, the moral code of secular humanism, and the brute fact of evolution. It's rather like labelling round-Earthism (also believed to be a brute fact by atheists) as good or evil.

	04-07-2002 18:18									#59
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You are basing you morals on opinions that exist in the fickle minds of men. What is unchanging is the fact that all of nature struggles to survive even if that survival requires the killing of the weak.

	04-07-2002 19:30									#60
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quote: You are basing you morals on opinions that exist in the fickle minds of men. What is unchanging is the fact that all of nature struggles to survive even if that survival requires the killing of the weak.

I am recognizing that morals ARE opinions that exist in the fickle minds of men.

If atheism truly required a belief that the struggle for survival is "morally good", then you might have had a point. But it doesn't.

This struggle is what has driven evolution, an impersonal fact of life that doesn't care about our labels, it simply IS. But, as social animals, we derive an increased chance of survival from altruistic impulses also.

Morality, however, is a social convention: a set of norms and rules governing interaction between humans. It is partly genetic, partly social conditioning, partly "enlightened self-interest". The principle is that everyone agrees to grant certain universal rights to others, and will receive similar treatment in return. "Bad treatment" of others is reserved for use as punishment, to encourage adherence to the agreed rules.