07-07-2002 07:35									#31
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Venger,

Just curious - as one who was an outspoken critic of civ3, what brought you back now?

After looking at your modwork and what you are trying to accomplish, I would be interested in having a copy of it when it is done. I agree wholeheatedly that the tech whoring is out of whack, even in the few weeks that I have started playing.

It seems to pay to use the strategy to reduce science to next to nothing and simply buy all the tech you need, which seems somewhat counter-intuitive to the whole concept of building your civ through effort. After all, the AI will readily trade with itself, and if you don't, you will fall behind. I can buy a tech in a few turn of raising cash (so why bother researching... and I can also use the cash for other things like upgrading and RBing.)

BTW, has anyone ever increased the cost of all units to reduce the number of military units in the game and cut down on the tedium of warfare, especially in the industrial+ ages?

Seems this would make those units and the placement of those units more critical too. (though railroads tend to give new meaning to the word 'Mobile', and end up cheapening another strategy tactic.)

Last edited by hexagonian on 07-07-2002 at 08:01

	07-07-2002 10:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Venger, Just curious - as one who was an outspoken critic of civ3, what brought you back now?

As they increase my ability to fix what they screwed up, my interest increases. When I couldn't fix corruption properly and culture flipping and reversion was out of control, I just quit. It's still bad, but getting better, or at least getting to where I can fix more of it.

quote: It seems to pay to use the strategy to reduce science to next to nothing and simply buy all the tech you need, which seems somewhat counter-intuitive to the whole concept of building your civ through effort. After all, the AI will readily trade with itself, and if you don't, you will fall behind. I can buy a tech in a few turn of raising cash (so why bother researching... and I can also use the cash for other things like upgrading and RBing.)

Exactly - why bother researching, just buy it second hand. You're better off dropping research to zero and just buying your techs. And that, my friends, sucks goat ass.

quote: BTW, has anyone ever increased the cost of all units to reduce the number of military units in the game and cut down on the tedium of warfare, especially in the industrial+ ages?

No, but then I've never tried to blitz my opponent in one turn either with 80 tanks - that's sorta lame in my book.

quote: (though railroads tend to give new meaning to the word 'Mobile', and end up cheapening another strategy tactic.)

I almost consider this a bug - infinite movement should be replaced by triple movement on rail at most (Civ2 had this problem as well). No reason that I can circumnavigate the globe on rail in two turns but a boat will take me 20 turns.

Venger

	07-07-2002 12:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Venger How did you eliminate contact trading until the middle ages? I don't see where that is in the editor... Venger

Go in the "tech" tab of the editor, and select writing. Uncheck "enables communication trading". In my mod, I have radio enabling communication trading... I've never traded communications with this

	07-07-2002 17:52									#34
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NYE, I have galleons but so does the AI. They're all way ahead of me in tech still (no coal -no railroads for me, this game is a ***** for a "stay at home builder"). The AI continues to use galleys because it still has a lot of them and it doesnt upgrade its units. Given Sorens and other comments, I think this is either a mod-ed bic (that humans werent told about) or there is some weird effect of emperor level. We know the AI gets more benefits as the level increases, is it possible that this effect is an unexpected 'cheat'?

	07-07-2002 17:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Go in the "tech" tab of the editor, and select writing. Uncheck "enables communication trading". In my mod, I have radio enabling communication trading... I've never traded communications with this

Interesting mod Spiffor. I'll bet it slows tech trading down a lot on 'watery-type' maps.

	07-07-2002 23:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH NYE, I have galleons but so does the AI. They're all way ahead of me in tech still (no coal -no railroads for me, this game is a ***** for a "stay at home builder"). The AI continues to use galleys because it still has a lot of them and it doesnt upgrade its units. Given Sorens and other comments, I think this is either a mod-ed bic (that humans werent told about) or there is some weird effect of emperor level. We know the AI gets more benefits as the level increases, is it possible that this effect is an unexpected 'cheat'?

If the AI has Galleons, then the AI has Magnetism. If the AI has Magnetism, then the AI can move ALL of its ships over water without worrying about them sinking. The same is true for the human. It's not a "cheat" because it is the way the rules work.

	08-07-2002 01:18									#37
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Soren, that is not what the Civilopedia says.
There it reads: "New Ability Caravels can safely traverse ocean squares."

Caravels, not Galleys.

I'd say that the Civilopedia makes sense. Even with a compass or longitude/latitude calculations (Navigation has the same text), I don't think Galleys would be safe on the ocean. I certainly wouldn't try to sail/row the ocean in one!

	08-07-2002 01:32									#38
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hi ,

Soren any way to have the option "sinks in ocean" on , even if you would have certain techs or wonders , ...

maybe something like "sinks always in ocean or sea" , ...
this would be great for mods also , ...

have a nice day

	08-07-2002 01:34									#39
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See my post on this. It worked for me...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=55082

Rebel Rick

	08-07-2002 02:51									#40
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Soren,

It looks like either the civilopedia needs revising or, better yet, a game revision that doesnt allow galleys to cross oceans ever.

	08-07-2002 03:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Soren, that is not what the Civilopedia says. There it reads: "New Ability Caravels can safely traverse ocean squares." Caravels, not Galleys. I'd say that the Civilopedia makes sense. Even with a compass or longitude/latitude calculations (Navigation has the same text), I don't think Galleys would be safe on the ocean. I certainly wouldn't try to sail/row the ocean in one!

ahhh, so that is where the misunderstanding comes from. That would be an error in the Civilopedia...

	08-07-2002 06:22									#42
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In my mod, I halved the advantage for each level. 110% became 105%, 140% became 120%, etc. I found this works okay, although I still find myself behind in tech sometimes.

To stop yourself being behind in tech, you also must trade for tech aggressively. Setting science to 10% and buying techs works well, particularly at higher levels. Even better is to be the first to research any tech. Being the first to a useful tech can easily be worth 3 or 4 techs in return. If you're aggressive, you can trade your way out of backwardness and into a tech lead.

The AI has a tendency to research techs in the top of the tech tree. Also, if any AI is a Scientific civ, they will trade around that free tech at the start of the age, so watch for this. They also tend to research evenly. If you drill down into the tech tree, or research techs in the bottom half, such as making a beeline for Refining, you may secure that unique tech that will get you back in the tech race. Correctly guessing what the AI is researching is worth a lot in your quest to catch up.

	08-07-2002 15:37									#43
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What I do is putting science on hold until I see which branches were researched by the AI. Then I max science to get the remaining option in 3-4 turns, trade for the other techs and repeat.

	08-07-2002 18:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis ahhh, so that is where the misunderstanding comes from. That would be an error in the Civilopedia...

It would be better to not allow galleys access to ocean squares. Galleys were not designed for ocean travel.

	08-07-2002 22:54									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH It would be better to not allow galleys access to ocean squares. Galleys were not designed for ocean travel.

Sorry, but that is like saying Spearmen cannot damage Tanks. Hey, the galleys just become small, slow transports that are ocean-capable. Completely legit (except for the graphic).

	08-07-2002 23:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH It would be better to not allow galleys access to ocean squares. Galleys were not designed for ocean travel.

There are exceptions: for example the Vikings probably were the first to travel to the New World - in a kind of galley.

In fact this was my wish for the Viking special unit: a galley that safely can cross oceans (this would make up for the bad Viking starting position in the tundra environment).

	09-07-2002 00:46									#47
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The viking ships were sailing ships not galleys (although they had oars). More importantly in the context of this discussion, they didnt travel to North America directly across the ocean. Instead they travelled from island to island across the North Atlantic (with the benefit of a compass).