08-07-2002 09:46									#31
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When you talk about freedom of speech, I fear you do this to scare people from forbidding / restricting pre-election opinion polls. To me, it's the same as scaring people with antisemitism whenever someone disagrees with a Jew (don't get me wrong, there is antismeitism in the world, just far less often as the Jews say). You use something scary which has nothing to do with the topic to get casual readers agree with you.

This debate has nothing to do with freedom of speech, as we won't limit anyone to express their views. It's never been discussed, and I don't think it has even been thought by anyone to forbid "Ninot Rules !" kind of threads. Except offensive content, which is clearly forbidden by Ming, you can say whatever you want in our Democracy, and it will stay so.

This thread (and the poll about it) is about pre election gallup polls, which are a flaw of Democracy IMO. We're here to build great Democracy, not to imitate flaws of RL.

	08-07-2002 09:49									#32
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Taking a poll on who you would/want/plan on voting for is an expression of a person's view and opinion.

By voting in a poll that I will vote for Trip, I am expressing my opinion that I believe he is a better candidate.

	08-07-2002 10:07									#33
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Ack, your voting for Trip?
lol, j/k
but i still dont think you understood the essence of my post

my post said:

The nation of Apolyton, the Democracy of Apolyton, to which we all belong, has its laws created by its people.

If you wish to change its laws, add to them, or take away from them, then just VOTE your will.

But complaining and saying its your United States of America constitutional right IS NOT the way.
And just because we are a democracy does not mean we guarantee all rights and freedoms the USA might.

BTW, Canada does guns the right way, only with a license
Kinda like you only let people who know how to drive get a drivers license.. cept guns shoot things, cars drive around while not hitting things.

	08-07-2002 10:17									#34
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Oh really? Let me pass on a quote made about gun registration, made by a wonderful guy named Adolf Hitler.

Pardon me if I paraphrase, as I don't have the exact words down...yet.

"For the first time in history, a civilized nation has gun registration. Our streets will be safer and the world will follow in our lead." 1939 or so.

Follow the footsteps of the Third Reich.

GUNS don't kill people. PEOPLE kill PEOPLE. Guns kill people like forks make people fat.

And does it matter if the gun someone murders someone else with is his own registered hand gun or a stolen rifle? Murder is a crime. Gun registrations/restriction/confiscation keeps guns out of the hands of those who obey the laws, not the criminals who go around them. And studies show that the countries and US states that ban guns have higher crime rates, burglaries and such. OT, however.

I wasn't aware freedom of speech was an inclusive right of US citizens. Did not Greece have public forums? Although they were perhaps more of a republic...which is what the US is...

I don't believe I said it is my USA constitutional right. Please, quote me so I can see it, and correct myself.

	08-07-2002 10:18									#35
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Oh yes, and I used Trip only as an example.

*MY POSTS DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT MY APOLYTONIAN POLITICAL VIEWS, OR HOW I WILL VOTE*

All this discussion is influencing my vote...better restrict it...

	08-07-2002 10:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Verto By voting in a poll that I will vote for Trip, I am expressing my opinion that I believe he is a better candidate.

quote: Originally posted by Linney Ack, your voting for Trip?

quote: Originally posted by Verto Oh yes, and I used Trip only as an example.

Does that mean you're going to vote for me or not?

	08-07-2002 10:26									#37
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I will not allow myself to be disenfranchised!

I would gladly voice my OPINION, but I am afraid it will INFLUENCE other people's VOTES. You know, because they look to me for wisdom and guidance...and the forbidden donut...mmmm

	08-07-2002 10:32									#38
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rofl, Trip said Linney said what I said..

K, no offense Verto, but your getting carried away.

You are comparring peaceloving Canada to Nazi Germany. Last I checked, our military was in shambles, we weren't massacring jews, and we aren't preparing to invade Poland.

Just because we have guncontrol does not mean we are nazis.

Oh, and not to defend Hitler, but many of the reforms he made for Germany weren't all that bad. He practically invented the paid vacation for them. Just.. that whole holocaust thing, and the whole bit about being evil.. yeah, not so good. But the point is, no, nazis bad, Canada good.

And yes, people kill people, except for the baby that pulls the gun out of her fathers cabinet.. and except for the poor kids who think the gun was empty when they picked it up and pulled the trigger... but still, THAT isnt the point either.

You arent in the USA right now.. you arent in Greece right now.. you are in the Democracy of Apolyton, which exists at
http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=154
the constition, freedoms, and rights of all other nations of the world, both IRL and online, do not apply here. Only our own do. If you wish to participate in this democracy, then petition and vote as you wish. If you wish to change the laws, then do the same. But being a democracy does not make Apolyton inherrently identical to whichever real life nation you wish it to be. It is what it is, not what you think it should be. You have to work to attain that.

	08-07-2002 10:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot You are comparring peaceloving Canada to Nazi Germany. Last I checked, our military was in shambles, we weren't massacring jews, and we aren't preparing to invade Poland.

Greenland is another story altogether though...

	08-07-2002 10:41									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Greenland is another story altogether though...

Ok, i admitt it.. i have secret plans to invade that useless iceberg.. but its not like were gonna slaughter them (quickly).

	08-07-2002 10:41									#41
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Interpretation of the quote is up to each individual...

I am not saying Canada is ready to invade Poland. I am merely trying to convey knowledge to you that Canada and England and many others are simply going into territory first entered by Nazy Germany. Look at these dictatorships and communist countries: how many of them allowed their citizens to own guns? How many dictators can commit genocide when the citizens are armed?

WAY off topic.

Back to the gallup polls.

I do not see how my wanting freedom of speech translates into me thinking Apolyton is the US. Any references I make to the US is when we are OT discussing something else.

I have not tried to make Apolytonia a carbon copy clone of the US. Citizens of Apolytonia can have freedom of speech without it become the 51st state.

As far as changing laws, petitioning and voting, I will do just that, as will every other active citizen.

This is what I get from your post: because I want freedom of speech, namely "gallup" polls, I want to turn Apolytonia into the US. Please explain how you made that assumption. As I said, what democracy has not given citizens freedom of speech?

Democracy is a government BY the people, so it by definition ruled by the people - yet the people don't grant themselves freedom of speech?

This is like the energizer bunny...

	08-07-2002 10:48									#42
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lol, i understand what ya mean.

Personally, i am for most kinds of freedom of speech. Gallup polls included. But i voted "unofficial polls be banned in certain instances" such as party propaganda use. I dont think Gallup's apply to that.

But, i make often reference to USA because it came up too much on the first page, with all the salesman talk and such...

Anyways, the way it was drifting, it looked like you and Sheikh were thinking of the USA is a democracy, and has very liberal freedom of speach... and Apolyton is a democracy, then we must ALSO have a very liberal freedom of speach.

But democracy is only a form of government, not a code of laws. Thats all I am pointing out now.

Threw our democracy however, feel very free to alter our own code of laws.

	08-07-2002 10:54									#43
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I will try to alter the code of laws, as I hope many other citizens will as they see fit, and more importantly, I will FOLLOW the code of laws.

As to me thinking the US is a democracy, I would go with Republic. A government IS a code of law - it has to be, otherwise we would have no government, we'd have anarchy.

	08-07-2002 11:00									#44
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i know this is getting off topic, but i disagree

identical governments can always have vastly different code of laws.

I'll state an example
The People's Republic of China's code of laws is strict on how many children any given family may have.

The Former USSR never had such laws, while their form of government was extremely simmilar.

Regulations on how many children may be born to a family IS what would belong to a code of laws. Because China is a Communist State is not the reason they have this law. Any Monarchy or Empire could have the same restriction.

	08-07-2002 11:05									#45
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Yes, they can always have vastly different code of laws, but they WILL ALL HAVE CODE OF LAWS. It doesn't matter that they are different. Without laws, they wouldn't be able to have presidential/committe/general secretary rule over the country.

A government is a complex system of laws. Not all democracies are the same, of course they aren't.

Maybe not making a lot of sense, but it's late and I'm tired.