07-07-2002 20:52									#31
	Why turn your back on the wisdom of the ages? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I wonder this frequently, when I get ignored here primarily.
Here I am, wisdom personified, and so unappreciated.
It took years of trial and error to get this smart.
Y'all should pay better attention.

	07-07-2002 21:06									#32
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Why do I turn my back on the wisdom of the ages?

Because Creationism, Theism, Slavery, Racism, Sexism, and Genocide were all once part of (or still part of) the Wisdom of the Ages.

	07-07-2002 21:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns No, its true. If you give money to the poor, you get the feeling that you are helping others less fortunate than yourself, for example.

How is that selfish?

	07-07-2002 21:50									#34
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He's making a valid point. Even the things that seem to be done in kindness are done in the selfish desire to feel good.

There's such thing as an intentionally selfless deed.

Furthermore, when applied to Alexander Horses's doctrine that self-centered philosophy is wrong it offers a rebutal. Indeed, there can be no such thing _EXCEPT_ for being self-centered

	07-07-2002 21:58									#35
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.. and then you realise that you are talking crap

Jon Miller

	07-07-2002 22:00									#36
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Wisdom from the horse again... Got it from the pulpit??

I agree with you. It was not until "the age of enlightenment" that man started discarding old wisdom publicly, especially the wisdom found in the bible.

This also meant surpressing man's natural religious bend, which had always been there (and still can be seen in newly discovered "primitive" tribes), but now it was deemed unnatural by some leading philosophers. Look to France!

I guess it's a good tactic calling something bad; something which is supposed to benefit you and be to your own good.

But some ppl just seem hellbent on their own destruction - conscious or not. [irony]Let's not impose our outdated "wisdom" on them. That is a veryyy baddd thing to do!!![/irony]

	07-07-2002 22:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ He's making a valid point. Even the things that seem to be done in kindness are done in the selfish desire to feel good.

I am not a psychologist, but it seems to me that, people do not help those less fortunate than tem because they want to feel good. At least that does not seem to be the overall motive.

I don't exclude that possibility, however.

	07-07-2002 23:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Why do I turn my back on the wisdom of the ages? Because Creationism, Theism, Slavery, Racism, Sexism, and Genocide were all once part of (or still part of) the Wisdom of the Ages.

And what about ignorance?

quote: He's making a valid point. Even the things that seem to be done in kindness are done in the selfish desire to feel good. There's such thing as an intentionally selfless deed.

You say that - but can you prove it?

	08-07-2002 00:51									#39
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This is all you need

====

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble, it's a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantement, it is as perrenial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

====

	08-07-2002 01:55									#40
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good thread AH

	08-07-2002 04:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes - and you just made an unqualified generalisation

Aye, which is why the was there.

	08-07-2002 04:26									#42
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RYUOKAI!!!

	08-07-2002 04:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Well, I just have the question: Is clearly everything somehow "selfish" - without doubt?

Nothing is without doubt. But I think the logic is pretty sound. There are reasons for our actions. Those reasons are that which we desire or deem to be of worth. By acting to achieve our desires or increase the value of our existance we are acting in a selfish manner, even when the results are beneficial to others as well.

	08-07-2002 04:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Aye, which is why the was there.

Hmmmm You might have just squeeeked out of it

	08-07-2002 05:10									#45
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I know it's a paradoxical (or hypocritical) statement, much like the one in my last post "Nothing is without doubt". I'm not trying to weasle out of the statement with a , I do believe in both the ideas expressed. It's just to let you know I realize the problems with such statements.

If nothing else, the statement is corroborated by the reaction it entails.

	08-07-2002 05:25									#46
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Ah - a sophist

Look, these motivation arguments remind me of people who say they don't give money to beggars because it encouraging begging.

Its logical I guess - coldly so - but wouldn't you feel so much better about yourself if you gave a freezing man a few lousy coins

What do your problems compare to his?

"And so have many entertained angels unawares"

	08-07-2002 05:43									#47
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Well, you can assume anything you want about my personality or the effects of this philosophy on my actions. You're pretty far off though. This line of logic refutes any sort of judgement of people or personal pride.

	08-07-2002 05:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Well, you can assume anything you want about my personality or the effects of this philosophy on my actions. You're pretty far off though. This line of logic refutes any sort of judgement of people or personal pride.

Sorry I didn't read your philosophy - I don't read long posts

	08-07-2002 06:34									#49
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Sure you can go on the wisdom of the ages (a very Burkian view of the world) because tradition is what comes out from experience and what has worked. But sometimes experience needs to be destroyed. Nietzsche is the ultimate personification of this. Experience needs to be cast aside sometimes so new ideas come to the fore.

And yes, humanity is a selfish creation. It is in our genes to think only for ourselves or our 'tribe'.

	08-07-2002 06:40									#50
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but not all action is selfish

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 06:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui (a very Burkian view of the world)

Okay I changed my view.

I wish people would stop painting this as an either/or situation. You can learn from the past, you can discover new ways, the two things are not necessarily contradictory. In fact we should be striving to find new insights.

For example, you don't have to be a practicing Jew or Christian or even a theist to get something out of Leviticus. At its heart its a timelessly beautiful poem or meditation on the human condition.

	08-07-2002 07:03									#52
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Jon - Yes it is .

quote: I wish people would stop painting this as an either/or situation. You can learn from the past, you can discover new ways, the two things are not necessarily contradictory. In fact we should be striving to find new insights.

But that isn't what you said . You should have been more discerning in your opening post, because you made it sound like an either/or... and furthermore, either/or debates are much more fun .

	08-07-2002 07:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But that isn't what you said .

Oh? Where?

	08-07-2002 07:13									#54
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quote: This isn't a plug for any particular religion or philosophy but I have noticed a lot of people today say they can work life out for themselves according to a set of beliefs and guiding principles which they craft themselves. I think this is the height of foolishness. In fact when people say this to me, I think, "you conceited fool". That idea really makes me laugh. Why? Because even if you make the most cursory study of religion or philosophy or politics or history you will find so many great people who have gone before you and blazed the trails to better ways of living and thinking. People who are much wiser than you, that came to some understandings after many years of struggle and study, that made all the mistakes and can tell you how to avoid them. Stories and lessons that have stood the test of time, universal truths. To quote Leviticus, there is nothing new under the sun. You will also find so many beautiful ideas and so much inspiration for your daily life. Drink at the well of human experience and be grateful that others have gone before you. This is like the greatest journey you could ever go on and now you're part of the story.

	08-07-2002 07:21									#55
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Some of you seem rather confident you are capable of undertaking truly "selfless actions". Well, I'm an individual and certainly don't feel that I haven't done anything intentionally selfless in my entire lifetime. Perhaps I'm wrong.

So, tell me of a good deed that you did on purpose that didn't make you feel good.

	08-07-2002 07:26									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Wisdom from the horse again... Got it from the pulpit?? I agree with you. It was not until "the age of enlightenment" that man started discarding old wisdom publicly, especially the wisdom found in the bible.

And we all know man accomplished MORE during the period of time when he was a slave to the Bible.

There exists an inverse relationship to science and christianity. The more people question the church, the more development mankind can undertake.

	08-07-2002 07:26									#57
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hmm

or not

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ Some of you seem rather confident you are capable of undertaking truly "selfless actions". Well, I'm an individual and certainly don't feel that I haven't done anything intentionally selfless in my entire lifetime. Perhaps I'm wrong. So, tell me of a good deed that you did on purpose that didn't make you feel good.

Yes well this is all very clever but its the outcome that matters not the motivation.

I think I heard someone say once that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Go and read the constitution of the Soviet Union, all very worthy and high minded, probably some of the strongest guarantees of personal liberty and human rights ever written. All very well meaning.

The trouble with your kind of obsession with motivation is that it leads to self absorption and a kind of moral paralysis. It justifies topor, ennui and doing nothing.

	08-07-2002 07:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ And we all know man accomplished MORE during the period of time when he was a slave to the Bible. There exists an inverse relationship to science and christianity. The more people question the church, the more development mankind can undertake.

Considering that the founders of many of the major fields of science were Christians I think you missed something there.

	08-07-2002 07:44									#60
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ And we all know man accomplished MORE during the period of time when he was a slave to the Bible. There exists an inverse relationship to science and christianity. The more people question the church, the more development mankind can undertake.

What a load of nonsense

When were people "slaves" to the bible?

And even if this were true, how is it relevant to today?

I think you're showing more than a little blind personal prejudice there