09-07-2002 10:33									#31
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There are four areas that should be focused on:
1) Ongoing emergency relief for droughts and famines. 2) Greater peacekeeping efforts to stop ongoing wars
3) Reducing arms sales; and
4) Long-term programs with specific targets and guaranteed funding from the west.

The most important thing to recognize is that things won't change overnight, and development requires a unified effort with specific goals. All too often, development projects are created on an ad hoc basis with different organizations working seperately and without a common goal. This is true outside of Africa as much as it is inside Africa.

A possible solution might be to pair up a developed country with a lesser developed country. The two countries could, for example, create a 20-year education plan with specific targets. The developed country could provide teachers and administrators with the goal of helping the local people to eventually replace expats.

Similar programs could be done in other areas.

The important thing is to provide experts on a long-term, but temporary basis with the goal of training local people to replace the foreign experts.

	09-07-2002 11:47									#32
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I try to keep myself informed on Africa but I've never been there and I am not sure I would like to vist. Of course a problem exists down there but we shall not forget that change starts within. Meaning that they should strighten their act before we even start to help them. Part of my tax money like most of yours finds its way to the African continent but I disagree with such practice. Africa is very divided and has a fundamental political problem that we can not solve for them. Of course there are countries that things are ok and of course europeans did a lot of bad down there but when time came and they pulled out what was left was more chaotic (in most instances) than before.


So I say:

Africa we care and we want to help but you have to try to help yourself first.

	09-07-2002 11:47									#33
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Debt amnesty combined with the dismantling of our trade barriers and fixing our intellectual propery laws would do wonders for Africa.

	09-07-2002 13:24									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Scientists are saying that they will be releasing an AIDS Vaccine in 5 years, they said it works on Monkeys.

It doesn't work on the main African variant though, but rather on the one that is prevalent in Western countries.

	09-07-2002 14:20									#35
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Why do we always have to medal I agree that we should get rid of there dedt. But some countries like Zimbabwe will use our interferance as justification for making things worse. Can't any of these countries solve there own problems. Or is the only solution us dictiating a solution

	09-07-2002 15:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker Why do we always have to medal I agree that we should get rid of there dedt. But some countries like Zimbabwe will use our interferance as justification for making things worse. Can't any of these countries solve there own problems. Or is the only solution us dictiating a solution

You can not blame a country as a whole for the acts of one single man. Robert Mugabe is perhaps the best example of a man who singlehandedly ruined a once relatively wealthy country. Reducing Africas debt will definetely help them recover as their interest payments are leding them into a vicious circle.
You must not forget that Zimbabwe has only been independent for 22 years and all this time Mugabe has been thair president. It would be unrealistic to expect a nation to turn into a westernlike democracy in such a short amount of time.

	09-07-2002 16:02									#37
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quote: Originally posted by philippe666 Africa is the Middle east of Tommorow. In congo(a former Belgian colony.)Women are getting raped and murdered on very cruel ways. Example:A woman came to her village becuase she was just about to marry.Some rebels storm in the village and starts raping and killing everyone.Then they come to that women chop off her hands ,chop off her breasts(tits for the dummies) She still strongly resists.A rebel takes a knife and stab it in her head. Other reports are from getting killed by getting a gun into their vagina (C.U.N.T for the dummies) and then the man shoots and after 15-20 minutes of cruel pain the woman dies from bleeding. But we allow it becuase they got control of some important resources for us to make GSM's...

And this should prove...what? We already have a bunch of stupid ass trolls here. We donīt want another. People do know these things, they just shut their ears and count their money. No amount of vulgarity on your part can change that.

If you are too blatantly provocative noone will listen

	09-07-2002 18:23									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Mugabe and company whose violence, lawlessness, racism and upcoming genocide infuriate almost every segment of western political society.

I enjoyed your post but racism? What racism has Mugabe demostrated? There is a lot of land in Zimbabwe which has been stolen from its proper owners, Mugabe is returning that land, he is enforcing private property rights - which is what a government is supposed to do in a capitalist system. Excuse me but many whites are very quick to yell racism when the shoe is on the other foot.

	09-07-2002 18:51									#39
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Africa will eventually become a decent place to live. The steps we in the West can take are:

1) Drop tariffs on agricultural produce. Both the EU and the US are big sinners in this respect.

2) Stop the direct loans to African governments - no more propping up corrupt dictators. Aid should come in the form of support to local business only - and be under direct Western supervision. No African goverment should get another cent of Western taxpayer's money.

3) Offer programs of mass education about hygiene, safe sex and birth control in exchange for democratisation. African countries recieving this support should have to present annual progress in respect to democracy and free elections, respect for human rights and respect for a free press.

	09-07-2002 23:34									#40
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I think it needs to be remembered that the West is in large part responsible for the mess in Africa. Leaving aside the horrors of the colonial period, the Cold War saw the US topple numerous democracies which weren't sufficiently hostile to the Soviets, which led to the rise of African-Marxist resistence movements which were often as bad as the cure.

The West sets the prices of the commodities that Africa produces. The West largely owns the companies that produce Africa's commodities. (The whole point of decolonization is to hold on to your property while giving the locals their own governmet. They pay for the government, you keep the profits.)

Then there's the debt trap, the medical patents, the agricultural subsideies, etc. Africa's also a dumping ground for Europe's toxic waste, for medicines that can't be used in the West because they are to dangerous, etc.

Which isn't to say that Africa isn't partly responsible for its own mess.

	09-07-2002 23:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants I think what most are assuming here is that African's want the same things we do. They want jobs, cars, families, homes, cities, techno convienecies, industries, etc. Who says they want any of this? How is imposing our values on these cultures any different for the "re-education and relocation" of the South Vietnamese during the Vietnam Conflict? How is it any different than the "re-education" of Native American's during the 18th and 19th century? Why stop with African's? Why not bring WalMart to the Aboriginies while you're at it? Why not reign in the Innuites too? What makes you so certain the your/our way of life is what these people want?

Well said, WE. This might be the most lucid post in this thread. I find it ironic that many will call upon the west to fix these problems and even blame the west for them existing. I won't doubt the west's influcence in the creation of the problem but the solution is not for western liberals with self-inflicted guilt (self-righteous guilt might be more appropriate) to step in and tell these people how they should now live their lives so they too may become caring and oh-so moral.

The various tribes that make up Afghanistan have been warring with one another for thousands of years. Now we believe we can install a stable, centralized government in that nation?! Africa, Afghanistan and other such nations/regions will become more stable only when the denizens there wish for it to happen.

	09-07-2002 23:55									#42
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Does someone? I don't.
OK, Ok,
Just don't let them immigrate to Europe or States, this won't help Africa.

	10-07-2002 00:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara the Cold War saw the US topple numerous democracies which weren't sufficiently hostile to the Soviets

The most enraging examples of this were in Zaire (DR Congo) and Angola. Many poeple say we shouldn't waste money on aid to Africa. Well the IMF and World Bank wanted to end funding to Mobutu's Zaire (which he was running into the ground) but the Reagan Administration wouldn't let them.

In Angola, they had a civil war which lasted from 1975-76. Until the CIA and apartheid South Africa went back in and restared the war becuase they didn't like the MPLA government.

	10-07-2002 02:41									#44
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Africa would probably be better off if it was still divided amongst the Imperial powers.

	10-07-2002 02:42									#45
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Yeah, cuz they did such a damn good job the first time around.

	10-07-2002 02:45									#46
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Africa would probably be better off if it was still divided amongst the Imperial powers.

Yeah, during Belgium's control of the DR Congo only half the population was killed.

	10-07-2002 02:55									#47
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Not saying that they did. However, I don't think that modern imperialism would resemble Heart of Darkness. Africa needs help developing basic political systems. They need political cultures that aren't based on ethnicity or military force. It doesn't appear that the current system is working, nor does it appear to be improving. Maybe it is time for a change of the system. Why would it be such a bad idea for the multitude of failing states to give up their sovereignty to an established power for a period? That power could help modernize the territory and diffuse ethnic politics. Slowly, the states would gain more and more self rule until they were completely self governing. It could use the story of Canadian independance as a model. The problem is that this would be incredibly expensive. No western nation would want to do this.

	10-07-2002 09:16									#48
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Your basic concept is right, but it would not require African nations to give up soverignty. We could set up a system based on the Canadian model, as you suggested, where a final court of appeal would be operated by an international agency. Laws could also be subject to approval by an international agency that would only have the power to veto bills that are unconstitutional.

The problem with this theory is not the cost, but the fact that no one would be willing to allow outsiders to have this kind of power.

	10-07-2002 09:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Solution to the african problem (IMHO): 3) The foreign debt of African countries must be dropped. There can be no economic progress in Africa if they have to pay obscene amounts of money to already wealthy countries in the north.

I don't know what you mean by wealthy countries of the north, but President Clinton( to Democrats) - I believe - forgave all countries the debt they owed to the US(monetary, not the debt owed because of our countless sacrifices

It is my personal opinion that the United States shouldn't intervene in a different country, or continent's, affairs - which was the opinion of many of the Founding Fathers. What would have happened if all of Europe decided that they needed to end the conflict in North America? You wouldn't have this Great Republic

I, of course, am not going to tell any other country or government, etc, how to go about its business, because it is not my place to tell others how to run their nations. Maybe some of your Europeans should try doing the same...

	10-07-2002 09:52									#50
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Whats this crap wealthy countries supposed to fit the bill for poor countries. In america, we have alot of people dont have health insurance. We have alot of people who cant get AIDS medicine of there own. In america, we have taxpayers who are pissed off about the government taking 40% of there income. America is NOT a free clinic. I dont want my money going to the corrupt regime in Nigeria. Screw that.


Anyone looking to Uganda for success? I wouldnt. They killed all the homosexuals,drug users and HIV postive people. If you want to call that success, I guess you can.

	10-07-2002 10:03									#51
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I agree. America is not a free clinic, and should not become the welfare state for the world. We've already moved to far in the direction of socialism as it is...

	10-07-2002 10:12									#52
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The US should provide development aid to third world nations for its own self-interest.

As countries become economically developed, new markets are created for American companies. Just look at how Asia has benefited the US in terms of trade.

A second factor is that the more a country develops economically, the more stable it becomes. Such countries then become less of a threat to the security of the United States and other developed countries.

Besides, there is also the basic moral concept of helping others who need help. If people are starving then we have a moral imperative to help these people.

	10-07-2002 10:32									#53
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I don't know...moral imperative...that might offend atheists, and we can't have that.

	10-07-2002 10:48									#54
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A canadian telling me I should distribute my money to the 4 corners of the earth? I think that Sucks. But oh well, the sun will come up in the morning. I guess I should Get on with it, like any good Klingon would.

	10-07-2002 11:10									#55
	Re: Re: Re: Africa, does anybody still care? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Carver I enjoyed your post but racism? What racism has Mugabe demostrated? There is a lot of land in Zimbabwe which has been stolen from its proper owners, Mugabe is returning that land, he is enforcing private property rights - which is what a government is supposed to do in a capitalist system. Excuse me but many whites are very quick to yell racism when the shoe is on the other foot.

Isn't ignoring black racism against whites just another form of racism? We can't just go back and forth forever cutting slack for whoever our current racists are because they themselves were also victimized by racism. We'll never see an end to it that way.

If you want to see both points of view argued ad nauseum, look for one of the many threads on affirmative action (or AA) which have been started in the last month or two. I'd rather not jack the thread any further.

	10-07-2002 11:17									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Yeah, during Belgium's control of the DR Congo only half the population was killed.

This happened before Belgium controlled the Congo.

	10-07-2002 11:17									#57
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"which is what a government is supposed to do in a capitalist system. Excuse me but many whites are very quick to yell racism when the shoe is on the other foot. "


Excuse me????? It is Racism and its also poor economics. Mugabe handed over otherwise prosperous farms to Mobs and veterans of the war. The farms, were Burned and most had no idea how to even farm so they went to hell. This is evident, in that 1/4 of Zimbabwe's population is now facing starvation. Whereas 3 years earlier, the country appeared to be atleast stable. You can have your fifteen minute's of Revolutionary Glory, but when the population starts starving again. Why is it always the greedy, Racist Western capitalists who feed and cloth these pathetic droves of people.

Africa is hopeless.

	10-07-2002 11:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Excuse me????? It is Racism and its also poor economics. Mugabe handed over otherwise prosperous farms to Mobs and veterans of the war. The farms, were Burned and most had no idea how to even farm so they went to hell. Africa is hopeless.

A majority of the farm land is still owned by white landowners, although with Mugabe, that is changing quickly as whites are driven off their land.

To say that Africa is hopeless shows a complete ignorance of the continent. There are many countries that are developing and that have decent governments. There are also basketcases caused by age-old wars. Lumping everything together is completely wrong.

	10-07-2002 11:41									#59
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"A majority of the farm land is still owned by white landowners, although with Mugabe, that is changing quickly as whites are driven off their land. "

This is NOT a good thing. Why anyone would hand over farmland which belongs to farmers to Mobs owed a political favor who have never farmed in there life. this is a great way to make the famine worse you know. Again, we have to come in and feed these people. The UN.


"To say that Africa is hopeless shows a complete ignorance of the continent. There are many countries that are developing and that have decent governments. There are also basketcases caused by age-old wars. Lumping everything together is completely wrong."

Name one stable Sub-Saharan African nation. One that is a role model. One that doesnt have a 20% crime rate or that hasnt had a Civil war in the last decade. C'mon, go ahead almighty Tingkai. I leave where are these "Decent governments". I guess south africa is ok, if you dont mind being Mugged at gunpoint once you get off the plane, and again in the Taxi, and on the street after you get kicked out of the taxi.

	10-07-2002 11:41									#60
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory A canadian telling me I should distribute my money to the 4 corners of the earth? I think that Sucks.

Yet more brilliance from FG. Instead of dealing with the message, he attacks the messenger.