11-07-2002 20:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo One explanation for the lower murder rates: Canada is so sparsely populated (even within city limits) that it's a tough job to find somebody to be killed.

Nope. One of the most densely populated urban areas in the world is the West End of Vancouver (which is almost entirely made up of 10 to 30 story apartment buildings). On average, the Canadian cities in Asher's list have population densities comparable to American cities. The stats are avail. through StatsCan and the US Census office, but I'm too lazy to dig them out right now.

	11-07-2002 20:08									#32
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Part of the difference is that Canadian cities tend to be more homogeneous than American cities so the statistics are somewhat deceiving.

Where do you get that from? Canada is more a country of immigrants that you are.

	11-07-2002 20:11									#33
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Part of the difference is that Canadian cities tend to be more homogeneous than American cities so the statistics are somewhat deceiving. For example Birmingham just left the 10 most deadly cities (its now 11th). But thats really just the stats for the inner city. Where I live in the burbs there is virtually no crime (except for the occasional gunfire on the highway) but our stats aren't included with Birmingham.

You have any stats on that? Vancouver is very racially mixed with over 30% of the residents being from Asia. Toronto and Montreal also have very large immigrant and non-white populations. The smaller urban centers of Canada are very homogenous, but not the cities on Asher's list.

	11-07-2002 20:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus It's not just the cities. On average, the homicide rate in the USA is about 7 to 10 times higher than in the rest of the western world.

But the vast majority of U.S. homicides take place in the urban centers. It isn't evenly dispersed geographically. Rural Iowa probably sees the same murder rate as rural France or Germany.

	11-07-2002 20:23									#35
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Is there a correlation with temperature?

	11-07-2002 20:39									#36
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Nope, those Finns seem to be a pretty murderous bunch too...

I have to say I'm not surprised - of all the Westernised countries I've ever visited, the US is far and away the most threatening country I've been to...

Peckham at night is child's play compared to, for example, the civic centre of San Franciso in broad daylight!

I don't like the idea of living in a country where there are seriously dangerous no go areas!

	11-07-2002 20:46									#37
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You're telling me that, in all of Australia, there isn't a place where it is dangerous to go?

	11-07-2002 21:23									#38
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quote: Part of the difference is that Canadian cities tend to be more homogeneous than American cities so the statistics are somewhat deceiving

I guess it really depends on the city you live in.
My high school was mostly Asian (East Indian, Pakistani, Japanese, Korean, Chinese) rather than Caucasian. It was more common to hear languages other than English in the halls.

If that's homogeneous, perhaps we're using the word a bit too loosely.

	11-07-2002 21:33									#39
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I wish my high school had been more homo...

oh wait, he said geneous, never mind.

It's at least good to see that NYC is lower down on the list. 16.8 ain't so bad, ya know!

	11-07-2002 21:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Part of the difference is that Canadian cities tend to be more homogeneous than American cities so the statistics are somewhat deceiving.

I don't know if this is true, but it is often said that Toronto has more people from different ethnic backgrounds than any city in the world. I think the story goes that every single nationality is represent in Toronto.

	11-07-2002 21:54									#41
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Hong Kong shows the economic theory and the density theory doesn't wash. Hong Kong is the most densely populated place on earth and it has one of the highest income gap and yet there are relatively few murders.

	11-07-2002 23:08									#42
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wait a second are these murder rates, PER DAY??

	11-07-2002 23:10									#43
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Probably the upbringing here in America...

It's still reletively puritanical and restrictive, and many people are probably looking for more freedom, or simply attention and individuality.

	11-07-2002 23:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti wait a second are these murder rates, PER DAY??

No!!

It's per 100,000 inhabitants, per year.

	11-07-2002 23:25									#45
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oh.

	11-07-2002 23:30									#46
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And Yeltsin wasn't a moron, just a stinkin' drunk.

	12-07-2002 00:04									#47
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quote: Philly 27.4

Sigh... Our murder rates have been going down dramatically over the past few years too... still high as anything

	12-07-2002 00:07									#48
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I went to the site... Instead of being the 3rd murderous like Asher posted... my city is the 2nd Dallas has 24.8, not 27.8.

	12-07-2002 06:54									#49
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quote: the number of people jailed per 100,000 is also high in the US: US 682 New Zealand 150 England and Wales 125 Canada 123 Scotland 119 Australia 110 Finland 54

I've been given reliable info that the correct figure for Australia is closer to 100 000...

	12-07-2002 07:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I went to the site... Instead of being the 3rd murderous like Asher posted... my city is the 2nd Dallas has 24.8, not 27.8.

Oops, that was actually my typo. Asher copied something I posted.

By the way, the info came from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...3000/153988.stm

	12-07-2002 08:40									#51
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The war on drugs is definitely one of the major reasons, if not the major reason, for the disparity.

	12-07-2002 09:30									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The 'war' on drugs can be thanked for a lot of the incarceration rate in the US. I think. I believe there is also a statistical correlation between living in a house with guns in it and being murdered. I don't like the 'lock up all the guns' group actually, but statistics do not lie. /Edit. That should say that numbers do not lie. Liers use statistics all the time.

Also depends on who cooked up the statistics. If your little stat comes from a certain person named Kellerman, then you've found a liar.

	12-07-2002 09:33									#53
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Oh, and for those jumping on the bandwagon and claiming Canada's murder rate is due to their gun laws, could one of you please show a nice drop in murder rate following those gun laws?

After all, you have to have an effect for that particular cause.

	12-07-2002 09:54									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sinapus Oh, and for those jumping on the bandwagon and claiming Canada's murder rate is due to their gun laws, could one of you please show a nice drop in murder rate following those gun laws? After all, you have to have an effect for that particular cause.

The murder rate in Canada has declined since 1976 (the year the death penalty was abolished). It is now at the lowest rate since 1969, IIRC.

Canada's strict gun control laws do appear to reduce murders.

1998 stats
Murders without guns per 100,000 people
Canada 1.3
US 2.3

Murders with guns per 100,000 people
Canada 0.5
US 4.4

Murders with handguns per 100,000 people
Canada 0.23
US 3.3

Overall murder rate per 100,000 people
Canada 1.83
US 6.62

Percentage of deaths involving firearms:
Canada 27.3%
US 66%

This information comes from;
http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Cda-US.htm
Similar info can be found at the British Medical Journal
www.ippnw.org/BMJAryaSmallArms.pdf

	12-07-2002 09:59									#55
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it's the beer. canadians are too drunk to shoot straight, americans are pissed off about not being able to get drunk on beer

	12-07-2002 10:38									#56
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Comparing different countries is problematic, due to cultural differences, societal differences, etc. Within the USA, it's been shown the states with the most gun control also have the most crime.

	12-07-2002 10:39									#57
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Canada and the US aren't very different culturally, or societally. If anything, we've got more diversity, which is a horrible thing in the US?

	12-07-2002 11:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Comparing different countries is problematic, due to cultural differences, societal differences, etc.

Balderdash!

Its gun control stupid!

Why Americans want to live in a society awash with guns, where even a minor domestic argument or traffic accident can become a life and death situation, is completely beyond me.

The whole Western world looks at your gun laws or lack of them and goes "what a bunch of idiots".

Sadly there's even a feeling of "well what do you expect?" whenever there's yet another gun massacre.

Its mainly selfish gun owners who hold the whole U.S. community to ransom.

	12-07-2002 12:05									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Within the USA, it's been shown the states with the most gun control also have the most crime.

I'm almost certain the control came only after they had already HAD a huge crime problem for a considerably long time. I would like to see some statistics on that.

Even if we have "only" 54 murders per 100,000 here, it's still too much.

	13-07-2002 06:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Balderdash! Its gun control stupid! Why Americans want to live in a society awash with guns, where even a minor domestic argument or traffic accident can become a life and death situation, is completely beyond me. The whole Western world looks at your gun laws or lack of them and goes "what a bunch of idiots". Sadly there's even a feeling of "well what do you expect?" whenever there's yet another gun massacre. Its mainly selfish gun owners who hold the whole U.S. community to ransom.

More like they are your scapegoat.

But then, it's oh-so-easy to pick a group of people to blame and take steps against them, isn't it?