22-07-2002 23:35									#61
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The problem Aro is that the Gaucho doesnt fit with Bolivar. It would be great for San Martin but Bolivar never fought with gauchos. We will have a big problem with this UU, I cant imagine anything. Maybe if I study a little bit more
Hugs
Yell

	23-07-2002 01:03									#62
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Yeah, I voted for San Martin...
Maybe some kind of partisan? Like an explorer with 1 deffense and 2 attacks... Nah, better make it 1 deffense, 1 attack and 1 movement bonus in jungle. One UU very fast... Good for guerrilla tatics.
Historically unprecise, as Firaxis like it...

	29-07-2002 21:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Once again, your damn right. A commercial civ... And we can't forget: We are selling all of our strategic companies... We're selling our improvments, in other words! Well... this is quite normal, here... In a certain way, we ARE a commercial civ. But we agree with the two caracteristics, so we need now an UU. You talked in another post about the 'gaucho'. This unit cames with an interesting concept, it deserves more reflexion. Will be a horseman, I suppose. What do you think?

I would think a commercial civ would BUY other nations companies not sell their own. If you sell all your companies you aren't commercial, some other country is and is providing you with the companies necessary to maintain your economy for a price.

	29-07-2002 23:56									#64
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It was a joke, GhengisFarb. A sad Latinoamerican joke.
I prefer expansionist and militaristic.

	29-07-2002 23:59									#65
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As militaristic, maybe we could take our companies back...

	30-07-2002 00:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Aro It was a joke, GhengisFarb. A sad Latinoamerican joke. I prefer expansionist and militaristic.

Ahh, but it might not be a bad thing. In the lates 70's and 80's US companies were bought out by the Japanese and Europeans and it turned out that the Americans spent the proceeds to buy stock in those said foreign companies.

Now Americans own large and in some cases, controlling interests in those foreign companies.

	30-07-2002 04:41									#67
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Ghengis,
As you see we have some humour here in Latin America. But it seems in the U.S. you have much more
¿Are you saying uruguayan chocolate company "Ricard" will buy "Hersheys"?
Your 70s and 80s tactique was good for the 70s and the 80s. Today the U.S. has total control of the world economy, with exception of those countries that have giant numbers of population or those who have a strategical resources.
Let me tell you one big no-secret thing: the only way a small third world country can develop enough to reach first world standards is not getting involved in an hypotetical WW3, leting the big countries destroy themselves and continue selling them the raw materials and primary products. Its really sad, but when there`s no belic war, the human race fights with economical and psychological media... in other words, latin american countries used to fight because now they are controlled by your government.
I have only one wish: please George W., dont send the whole world to the trash can
Hugs
Yell

	30-07-2002 20:28									#68
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It's funny, but it actually makes sense. If you are a third world country sell everything to the American corporations. They have the capital and technology and they can build business far faster and more efficiently then you.

With the money you made from selling the stuff invest in something you are good at or even the company you just sold to. You know that company will be making money because you just sold them your interests.

As that company gets larger and your assets are worth more buy back the assets you previously sold. They are now modern and efficient and all you had to do was lend them to somone better adapted than you to develop them.

A side note: Companies tend to go on buying sprees, they gobble up all kinds of competition and then have to file for bancruptcy and spin off those acquisitions because they ate too much.

	30-07-2002 21:32									#69
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Ghengis,
I know thats a good way to have developed companies in my country. Thats why Uruguay never sold a public companie (different that Brazil or Argentina that sold nearly everything). Uruguay lends them (read in a literal way), we do what its called "tercerización" (in english it would be "thirdcerization" or something like that ). That means the foreign companie takes care and modernizes the local companie while earning its money for a 25 or 30 years period of time. After that the local companie comes back to public control. But that system is too complicated when you have to give a company that actually brings you money: the problem is that as we dont have money to pay the interest of our external debt, we need to get more money than the money we earn from the companies in order to pay the interest.
Hugs
Yell

	30-07-2002 22:48									#70
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yellsfromhell,

You fogot the "Hugs" when you posted the final poll results in the Europe thread.

	30-07-2002 22:49									#71
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And I "fogot" my "r".

	01-08-2002 07:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by yellfromhell One more thing Fresno, ¿Dont you miss your Netherlands in Civ? I remember Holland being one of the four empires in Colonization game. I always played with them to enphasis trade. Bye. Yellfromhell

I definitely want to see the Dutch in the game! I worked on a project involving the Netherlands for 2 years, and during that time made a few Civ 2 scenarios with a Dutch civ.

But what about Colombia as a South American civ? Okay, I only say this because my girlfriend is from Bogota. I even made a scenario and put the Colombians in as a playable Civ, researching their places and leaders. I said something about 'Bucaramanga' one day, and she said, "How do you know about that town?" My reply: "Because I'm civilized."

	01-08-2002 09:03									#73
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As for a mythic leader for an Ibero-American civ... the only choice is Aureliano Buendía!

	01-08-2002 11:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ade As for a mythic leader for an Ibero-American civ... the only choice is Aureliano Buendía!

"Cien años de soledad" is a great option

	02-08-2002 02:03									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Quasar1011 But what about Colombia as a South American civ? Okay, I only say this because my girlfriend is from Bogota. I even made a scenario and put the Colombians in as a playable Civ, researching their places and leaders. I said something about 'Bucaramanga' one day, and she said, "How do you know about that town?" My reply: "Because I'm civilized."

What you call them? Arawaks(Taino)?

	02-08-2002 03:43									#76
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tHE problem is: ¿is there a country 'Colombia' at all?
We have the government, the FARC, the ELN and the Selfdefense Paramilitar League, all fighting one another. Some of them have well controlled territories (the FARC f.e.). They have thousand of supporters (not only drug-dealers). Maybe Colombia deserves their own Civilization game
And we could include in it a civ leadered by a madman called W that invades everything that looks suspicious (I believe its a premonition)
Hugs
Yellfromhell

	02-08-2002 04:17									#77
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quote: Originally posted by yellfromhell And we could include in it a civ leadered by a madman called W that invades everything that looks suspicious (I believe its a premonition) Hugs Yellfromhell

You bet! Rome, Spain, France, England, and Germany all got their shots at conquering the world, now it's our turn!

World War III- America takes the offensive! Big Macs and Pepsi-Cola for all our supporters!

Yay!

	02-08-2002 21:43									#78
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Then begin it.
But please fight militar powers, not tiny undefended countries. Maybe that way we can sell you some food (btw, the freedom supporters now subsidize their agricultural and steel production, after convincing 3rdWC not to do it).
Clash with China for once please.
Hugs
Yellfromhell

	02-08-2002 21:47									#79
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quote: Originally posted by yellfromhell Then begin it. But please fight militar powers, not tiny undefended countries. Maybe that way we can sell you some food (btw, the freedom supporters now subsidize thair production, after convincing 3rdWC not to do it). Clash with China for once please. Hugs Yellfromhell

Why would we buy food? We're one of only three countries in the world that produces more food than we consume. We're the only nation I know of that has to PAY its farmers NOT to grow food out of a fear of plague and epidemics with all the stockpiled excess foodstuffs.

Heck, we've tried giving away, but we can't find enough takers.

	03-08-2002 02:33									#80
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1) There are lots of countries that produce more food than that they consume.
2) U.S. pays the Farmers because a country that doesnt produce enough food cant engage in war.
3) Most of all the movements the Food & Drugs Administration does are in support of companies that make good gifts. "Drink Milk" campaign was because overproduction, not because national health. And so does with fish, vegetables, etc, all of poor quality or contaminated by your bad smelling waters.
4) You wont find everything in the 'CIA Factbook', that btw has extrtemelly old data and plenty of errors (maybe not errors, but deliveradly created false information)
Hugs
Yellfromhell

	03-08-2002 03:54									#81
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quote: Originally posted by yellfromhell 2) U.S. pays the Farmers because a country that doesnt produce enough food cant engage in war. 3) Most of all the movements the Food & Drugs Administration does are in support of companies that make good gifts. "Drink Milk" campaign was because overproduction, not because national health. And so does with fish, vegetables, etc, all of poor quality or contaminated by your bad smelling waters.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say in those points. The US pays its farmers not to grow food because of epidemic and disease.

I live in America's bread basket and remember very vividly when that policy began. I remember it because I watched the US officials set fire to mountains of grain in order slow the massive overpopulation of rats it was fueling.

My family owns a farm and it has been in our family for over 100 years, they constantly joked about how much more they were making to NOT grow food than they were for growing food.

Course lately, out area has been having drought and food production is way down. Funny thing is, even with our food production down, we still have no shortages.

	13-08-2002 04:18									#82
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you don´t have shortages because you import food from other coutries

	16-08-2002 16:54									#83
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Greetings from the other side of the Rio de la Plata!!!

I definitely concur with the possibility of seeing only one LatinAmerican Civ in the game... About their leader, I presume anglo-saxons developers would choose Bolivar since he's more known than San Martin

The specific attributes could be religious (iberic reminiscence) and exploration (vast vast region)

Hope the idea sticks...

	19-08-2002 12:54									#84
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A "Brazilian civilization" should be expansionist and religious. That would explain how we manage well political instability and the frequent gov. changes, we can do it in only one turn! Or if you could have new traits from PTW, we would have a totally different corruption system: the closest a city is from it's capital, the more corruption it gets!

UU? Something to think about... our army's main purpose was to repress rebellions and unrest. A settler with 2 mov. points maybe?

The monarchy party is not something serious, and about selling our improvments to global corporations, that money was pulverized at the black hole called "national debt", that's US$200.000.000.000,00

Brasília, the capital, is a desert of concret built over an arid land (not jungle, as far as I know) at an insane high cost. But dont want more controversy here.

A joke to those who believe that Brazil had no impact upon the world: wait till we finish off Amazon...

	20-08-2002 02:26									#85
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Aro:
Hey!!! Extremely nice to see a famous brazilian around this Civ3 forums!! Wow! A famous brazilian citizen that is also a Civ3 player! Incredible...

yellfromhell:
You do have a hell of a knowledge about History! Congratulations! I was instantly glued to this thread after reading your first post! Cool!
You said that there are two territory constests among Brazil and Uruguay. I thought that it was only one, and that Brazil had already given away the land to Uruguay. What do you know about this? Land for peace, my friend!

GhengisFarb:
American vs. Chinese - I saw the movie "Spy Games" a short time ago, and definitely Americans are painting the Chinese Civ as being the Bad Guy of the moment (well, at least one of them... ). Just like it was with the splitted (remember Civ2? ) USSR during the Cold War. BTW, I have nothing against USA. You are just defending your interests, like we, Brazilians, were supposed to do more... I think USA has some characteristics that others may not mimic, and tons of good examples that are to be followed. Finally, how do you - and the americans that you know - see Brazil´s future?

And now, just my two cents about...

::: Brazil :::

- Leader: Getúlio Vargas
- Civ Characteristics: Religious (Biggest Catholic Country in the world; Lots of other religions are present, living peacefully with each other.) and Industrious (try to hack through a jungle not being industrious... Biggest hydro plant in the world - well, until our friends the Chinese finish their own... The only "developing country" present in the Space Station Project. Our first sattelite launcher is due to November, 2002 - it will make Brazil one of the eight (?) countries that dominate this technology. Brazil also already knows how to enrich uranium, with our own technology.)

-Unique Unit: EXPEDITIONARY (Brazilians)

The EXPEDITIONARY are our WWII veterans.

Prerequisite: Nationalism
Resources: None
Class: Land

Cost: 80 shields

Attack/Defense/Movement: 5/6/1
Bombard: NA

Upgrades From: Musketman
Upgrades To: Infantry

Abilities: Foot Soldier
Draft
Ranged Attack Animation

AI Strategies: Defense

Orders: Load
Airlift
Pillage
Upgrade Unit

Any comments?

Best regards,

	20-08-2002 03:53									#86
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I don´t know in which way were the FEB unique from other infantry in the WWII. Maybe a unique aspect of a brazilian unit would be the "Bandeirantes" and other explorers, they walked huge distances and made Brazil take it´s actual shape. But I don´t know how to put this into the game. I must confess also that I´m a bit ignorant about our military.

Since lots of civilization (e.g. Greek) weren´t united as a state, and other (like Japan and Germany) weren´t for a long time in their history, and a civilization concept is of a people with similar culture and heritage, it would suit better a latin-american civilization. Not to be polemic on what achievements we had in this short period of independence (historically speaking), but it would represent this part of the world.

As for some statements made that ex-colonies shoudn´t be civilizations, I must note that, although is strange Lincoln in 4000 B.C., anyother civilization, with the exception of the Babylonias, Egypt and India shouldn´t be included in that period (just because Greece started a long long time ago doesn´t mean they were a civ by 4000 B.C.). I must also remember that nearly all civilizations, to a certain degree, were formed upon an existing people/culture. The difference is that since the USA history is much more recent, it´s also much more clear the moment they split and formed a new culture than Rome, for exemple.

	20-08-2002 07:55									#87
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Odd wrote:

quote: I don´t know in which way were the FEB unique from other infantry in the WWII.

Hey! The Expeditionaries are unique because they are like us: Brazilians!!! Got the point?

Ok... I understand... Bandeirantes would be a great unit to a Expansionist Civ, if Brazil is to be considered of this kind in Civ3.

I´m trying to think in a (sort of) modern unit for Brazil... Well...

- Astros II: mobile plataform to launch rockets.
- Jungle Infantry: extra benefits in terrains like forests and jungles - because of our Amazon).
- Luiz Felipe Scolari (aka Big Phil): Great Leader - may build armies with eleven units - known to have crushed six Civs in only two weeks (one of them respawned and was crushed again, thus making a total of seven civs crushed).

Best regards,

	04-09-2002 22:33									#88
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Hey, kokomo, date una vuelta por el foro del Spanish Civilisation 2 site... se discute todo civ!

	07-09-2002 09:28									#89
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A Latin American civ would better represent what Civilization means in modern scholarly sense, in terms of being a super-national link between groups with common roots, ideas, and goals.

I definitely think it's a good idea. Represent the West instead of the Old World all the time.

	10-09-2002 18:23									#90
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Hi,
Kokomo, thanks for the greeting. I concur with you about Bolivar and the anglo-saxon developers.
Craftsman, thank you too. About Uruguay and Brazil contested territories: 1) the so called "Isla Brasileira" ('Brazilean island' in english, but the name is wrong :=))) , in the Cuareim (Cuaraí) river, in front of Bella Unión (Uruguay) and Barra do Cuaraí (Brazil). I know that there is only one inhabitant in the island: a very old and crazy man that says he was sent there by the brazilean government during the 50s to defend it from the uruguayan invasion :=) . 2) A big territory near the cities of Rivera (Uruguay) and Livramento (Brazil). In that territory we always had a settlement, now a small town called "Masoller". During the 60s the brasilean government ordered to build a settlement there too. That brasilean town was built in three days. Since the 60s uruguayan and brasileans competed there installing gasoline stations (ANCAPs and Ipirangas), buying lands, etc. Anyway, Masoller is a lot more developed than the brasilean town because it has a good school (brasilean boys go to Masollers school) and houses are better in Masoller too. The last movement I know about in this problem is the claim of a Rio Grande Deputy, saying "Uruguayans are invading Rio Grande" (imagine that: our obsolete 100 tanks against your F16 and thousands of soldiers :=) ). The "Sin Tierra" movement is now near Uruguay-Brazil fronteir and they seem to be willing to settle in the contested territory. This is the last news I have about the problem. Surely one day their will not be fronteir anymore (maybe we unite, maybe you conquer us :=) ).Hugs
Odd, Im with you in the idea of having the Bandeirantes as the brasilean UU. But anglo-saxon developers sometimes lack of knowledge about developing countries: surely they would draw the Bandeirante as a black brasilean :=)
Felch X. Hi. I support what you say. Maybe in Civ4, when you reach modern era, the Persians could become IRAk, or the Russians could become the USSR, the Otomans become Turkey, etc. Or maybe we could have to deal with colonies that want their independence: the English could loose some colonies that form the USA, the Spanish could loose Latin-America, etc, etc.
Well, hugs to all of you.
Bye.
Yellfromhell