01-08-2002 06:51									#61
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hello!

Coracle: "I'll bet that majority is still playing it pre-first patch."

You would loose that bet, I guess. I think, most *computer games players* will have access to Internet.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora When i had no internet access i would buy those simply for the patches and extra stuff.

Yes, that is one possible answer. Leading to another question, what would you think about buying a car full price, and half a year later they tell you "Now you may buy, for a price, this fourth wheel"? (the picture is not mine, but I think it fits)

Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Dagers"

	01-08-2002 13:15									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis quote: Originally posted by vondrack Floodplains are GREAT for an early city I don't think floodplains are that great. I don't want diseases in my Capital. And I'm not looking for an early city, I'm looking for a place for a Capital for the next 4000 years. [snip] As I said before, I'm planning for a city for the next 4000 years, which probably will have 16 or more workers.

Why? What makes you think that the very first city of yours must remain your capital throughout the ages? The palace relocation is as common as anything else in Civ3. In fact, it's rather uncommon to have the capital at the same place throughout the whole game, mostly because of the corruption to distance issue.

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis 3) Hills: Not good. I need 3 population for a settler, because I loose 2. 4) Tundra: This not only means no good city growth, but one starts way off of other civ's. No other civ's=no trade. And one can easily be cornered/ arrested. In Civ2 I once did that to the Russians behind a bottleneck; in 1900AD they still had one city. 5) No mixed terrain: Yes, no start is perfect. The question for the whole terrain issue is: Why is the location more often worse than in Civ2? (which is my impression) quote: Originally posted by vondrack Entirely your impression ONLY. The landscape generator is very good and it is rather rare that I get a really bad starting position. And I have started way more than 20 games, believe me... Probably not. Do you know *all* players of Civ3? If not, IMM you're lying. And even if, where is the argument?

What about quoting me fairly, huh? You first cut my argument and then ask me where it is... I said I had started WAY more games than you (well over a hundred, to be more specific) and the starting locations were just fine (at least as good as in Civ2). Once in a while I get something I do not feel like playing, but 90% of the starting positions can be played out pretty easily.

Sorry to say so, but your column and follow-up posts show little skill in playing Civ3. You seem to be longing for an easy game, one that poses no challenges, even if very reasonable ones (like spitting your settler two or three tiles away from a perfect capital city site, or giving it less than a perfect start with no additonal movement necessary). That is why I consider your column written by a Civ3 beginner - that would be ok, but you should have made that clear. However, your column was written from "an experienced player" viewpoint. And that was unfair to the game.

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis quote: Originally posted by vondrack Apparently, you know absolutely nothing about real programming Yep. Apparently. :-) Is your argument "It is more difficult to look for 1000 combinations than to look for 10 combinations" ? Yes, 1000 is more than 10.

Huh? My argument was that you do not look for missing semicolons (which would be easy). You are looking for nothing easily visible, when debugging a program. You have to imagine what can happen in the program... even the most unexpected combinations... and there are thousands of them, some very weird or completely nonsense, yet they will be happening. But, you know... if you never wrote a program yourself, you will not be able to imagine. Just like you are not able to imagine, what it takes to build a house, if you have never built one with your own hands (it's apparently easy, isn't it? just try it and you will see for yourself).

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis And how would a second or third patch fit into your picture? I think, the additional patches for Civ3 destroyed your picture. If you want to argue with still more pockets, I may say, no thanks.

Still the same. I return the second trousers and get new ones again. And again. The pockets are there as a free extra, not as an argument to support the idea of patches.

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis In general, I think patches for software are neither a necessity nor a good thing. Think of the honest buyer without Internet access. Is he treated honestly by the software company? Where could he possibly get the patches? Have you/ has anybody ever tried to get a patch from a software store?

In general, you think patches for software are neither a necessity nor a good thing. Holy Mother! Do you know THAT MANY software developers that release programs that NEVER need patches (i.e. that never have bugs in them)? Are you serious? What about Microsoft, Adobe, Corel, Blizzard Entertainment and thousands of others? Man, the patches ARE necessary and they ARE a good thing, 'cause they fix problems with the original release. You can't opt for "having no patches". You would have to opt for "having no bugs" first, which you can't. It is impossible.

As for your question. Dunno, maybe it's different here in the Eastern Europe... but every single gaming magazine here publishes one, two, or three cover CDs with every issue. These are - besides other stuff - LOADED with patches of all kinds. It really is not that difficult to get the patch if you really need it (here in Czechia, that is - anyone to comment on the situation in Germany... in the US? bah... I do not really expect anything different...).

Cheers,
Radek

	01-08-2002 13:24									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora When i had no internet access i would buy those simply for the patches and extra stuff Yes, that is one possible answer. Leading to another question, what would you think about buying a car full price, and half a year later they tell you "Now you may buy, for a price, this fourth wheel"? (the picture is not mine, but I think it fits)

No, it does not fit. You can't drive a car with three wheels only. The correct parallel would be if they offered you, for a price, the possibility to improve your car somehow (software is almost never UNUSABLE without patches, but runs much better with them).

Just by the way, they do it. You can have a patch for your car, if it is a modern one. The modern engines are controlled by special computers running special software. You can have a newer version of the software loaded in (in a car repair shop). The engine works better then...

	01-08-2002 15:20									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Arguing over analogies isn't helping. There were a minority of people whose hardware was incompatible with the original Civ (like every game) but for the majority it was just game balance issues. The patches address both problems and like it or not, these days all game publishers seem to assume that releasing a dodgy product and providing support via the internet is acceptable.

Game magazines do try to help cover the gap but of course they typically only carry the latest patch. If it turns out to cause new problems, be incompatible with certain CD-Roms because of copy protection (a current problem for NWN) etc you are in trouble. The catch-22 is that you usually have to buy the magazine without knowing if the CD has the solution to your problem.

Another interesting effect is that not everyone likes all the changes introduced by patches that do more than just squash bugs. In the case of Civ the changes to pop-rush, corruption and the change to rates of tech aquisition, tech trading and even out of turn trading caused a lot of debate.

	01-08-2002 21:39									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hello!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Why? What makes you think that the very first city of yours must remain your capital throughout the ages?

You have a question, I have an answer. My experience with Civ2 makes me think that my first city should be the Capital through time.

quote: The palace relocation is as common as anything else in Civ3. In fact, it's rather uncommon to have the capital at the same place throughout the whole game, mostly because of the corruption to distance issue.

Once I looked to relocate my Capital. The town would have needed 159 turns to build the palace. No thanks.

vondrack:"Entirely your impression ONLY."
Dirk:"Probably not. Do you know *all* players of Civ3? If not, IMM you're lying. And even if, where is the argument?

quote: What about quoting me fairly, huh?

I have no reason to succumb to your definition of fairness as I don't know it. And even if .... I use my definition of fairness instead.

quote: You first cut my argument and then ask me where it is...

Okay, I'll rephrase. What is the argument in "Entirely your impression ONLY."? What about my question "Do you know *all* players?" Are you lying?

quote: I said I had started WAY more games than you

Maybe right, maybe wrong. The point is, you can not know, as I never said how many games I'd started. I'd said "out of 40 documented tries". That does say nothing about the undocumented number.

quote: Sorry to say so, but your column and follow-up posts show little skill in playing Civ3.

Unimportant. IIRC, my column was not titled "I'm the most experienced Civ3 player"

quote: You seem to be longing for an easy game, one that poses no challenges, even if very reasonable ones (like spitting your settler two or three tiles away from a perfect capital city site, or giving it less than a perfect start with no additonal movement necessary).

Yes, I'm looking for a relatively easy game. I'm doing this for fun, not for profit. And if those, who try to make a profit from my fun, do a bad job, I sometimes tell.
What is the problem with giving the player a good starting location? And what exactly is the fun in having to look for a good starting place?

quote: That is why I consider your column written by a Civ3 beginner - that would be ok, but you should have made that clear.

Really, I should? I don't think so. BTW, IIRC I stated "10.) I have Civ3 for 17 days now." I believe it's better to state some facts, so that my definition of "experienced player" does not collide with your def.

quote: However, your column was written from "an experienced player" viewpoint. And that was unfair to the game.

I think I was right. In your mind, is there a difference between "an experienced player" and "an experienced Civ3 player"? If yes, what's your problem? Bad thinking, I guess?

vondrack "Apparently, you know absolutely nothing about real programming"
Dirk "Yep. Apparently. :-)"

quote: Huh? My argument was that you do not look for missing semicolons (which would be easy). You are looking for nothing easily visible, when debugging a program. You have to imagine what can happen in the program... even the most unexpected combinations... and there are thousands of them, some very weird or completely nonsense, yet they will be happening. But, you know... if you never wrote a program yourself, you will not be able to imagine.

I think you're wrong. And I think you're very wrong about imagination.

quote: Just like you are not able to imagine, what it takes to build a house, if you have never built one with your own hands (it's apparently easy, isn't it? just try it and you will see for yourself).

I don't think so. I can imagine there is a difference between building a family house and a scyscraper. For now, that's good enough for me.

Dirk "second and third patch"
vondrack "Still the same. I return the second trousers and get new ones again. And again. The pockets are there as a free extra, not as an argument to support the idea of patches."

I don't want to return the product again and again. I'd want to buy some product that I can use. At once. On and on.

quote: In general, you think patches for software are neither a necessity nor a good thing. Holy Mother! Do you know THAT MANY software developers that release programs that NEVER need patches (i.e. that never have bugs in them)? Are you serious? What about Microsoft, Adobe, Corel, Blizzard Entertainment and thousands of others?

Yep. I remember quite well the name "Microprose". It is said, they did a computer game called "Civilization". My first contact with something from Microprose was a game called "Silent Service" though. IIRC. Or was it "Pirates!"?
My point is, I remember quite well having played dozens or more of computer games that never needed any patch. Easily remembered names are "Elite", "Frontier", "Silent Service", "Pirates!", "The Bard's Tale", "Pit Stop", "MechForce", "Empire". If you do not remember any games without patches, that is not my problem, but yours.

quote: Man, the patches ARE necessary and they ARE a good thing, 'cause they fix problems with the original release. You can't opt for "having no patches". You would have to opt for "having no bugs" first, which you can't. It is impossible.

I don't think it is impossible to have computer games without bugs. As I said before, I remember several games completely without bugs.

vondrack "As for your question."
Which question? I stated several.

quote: Dunno, maybe it's different here in the Eastern Europe... but every single gaming magazine here publishes one, two, or three cover CDs with every issue. These are - besides other stuff - LOADED with patches of all kinds. It really is not that difficult to get the patch if you really need it

No, I don't need it. I just do not want to buy a defective, bug-ladden and badly designed software.

quote: Cheers, Radek

Who is Radek? No, don't answer, I'm simply not interested.

(Second post)
Dirk "Now you may buy, for a price, this fourth wheel"
vondrack "No, it does not fit. You can't drive a car with three wheels only."
It seems to me, I sometimes lay "minefields" into each communication. I really didn't think of it when I wrote my post, but surely one can drive a car with 3 wheels only. After World War 2 there were several cars with just 3 wheels. No, not damaged from the war, but designed and manufactured that way. I even remember having seen one in my birth town. Sorry, you just ran into a trap. I might add, AFAIK at full speed and as usual.

Grumbold, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I want to say one point again: "these days all game publishers seem to assume that releasing a dodgy product and providing support via the internet is acceptable." Yep. And I disagree with the publishers, I find it unacceptable.

vondrack, please consider using e-mail for further exchanges. I don't think the general audience can get much more out of this.

	01-08-2002 22:25									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DirkZelwis vondrack, please consider using e-mail for further exchanges. I don't think the general audience can get much more out of this.

You know what, Dirk? What you are doing is just playing with words, bringing faulty parallels, juggling with word definitions... but missing the point in 95% of the cases. I guess everybody knows by now. No need for further conversation, especially with an ^&$%#@ lying "minefields" in his conversation. You went very rude, dude (in my definiton of the word, sure). Consider yourself honored by making it an all-time #1 to my ignore list. Not even Coracle made it.

Radek

P.S.: I know you did not want to know. But anyway... that's my real name - I thought I would just sign my post. Even if I thought I didn't care a hoot about who's Dirk, I would never be rude to say so.

	02-08-2002 03:48									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thank you. Have a nice day.

	23-11-2002 05:37									#68
	Got spare money?

I find myself less fond of germans in general after reading that "article".

If you find yourself in a less than ideal starting spot as far as food goes, you'll probably have to capitalize on the strengths of the area and become more militaristic or economic than expansionistic. Frankly, I don't see why you wouldn't want every floodplains you could get your hands on in range of the capital. What does it matter if disease strikes the capital every so often if it grows again every 6 turns? Heck, this is minor, and i suppose your gripe is fine, but your five points could've been made in three sentences.


My main gripe with the article was that little bit about the AI cheating in combat on monarchy. You sent a 2 attack power attacker against a 1 defense power defender, drew some bad luck losing 4 rounds of combat in a row, and thus concluded that the AI cheats? You then validate the point by cheating yourself, loading the game over and over and losing that same round of combat over and over without realizing that the random seed is preserved and is done thusly to implicitly prevent such cheating?

Good lord, man!


Nax

	23-11-2002 08:13									#69
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Holy thread ressurrection Batman!

	08-02-2003 16:24									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sorry, I'm off.

	10-02-2003 14:42									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Holy cow indeed.

Why do people get the urge to spoil other people's fun? If I play a game for say 5 hours a day, theres not enough Dirks in the world to convince me to quit. My wife could do it, but no Dirk. So I dont really understand what seems to be the problem. Why would you want to shut up the naysayers? It just prooves that each and every one of us basically wants a "taylor made" game, which of course isn't possible. Some of us get used to the bad aspects, some of us rant. Let 'em rant! The more, the merrier (spelling?). So if Dirk *****es about unfair starting positions, well, let him. You'd expect a person in his 40ties would know to live with the fact that not everyone gets same starting position (not in a game, not in life). It is however funny for the rest of us, to listen to him whine about it. Hey Dirk! Whats next? Boohoohoo the others got 2 luxuries and I got only one. *$%@@& cheating AI. And they make fun of me when I loose, too!

	11-02-2003 11:32									#72
	Inflate your Upload Space

Firstly I have not read all this thread, only the first page and a half.

MY OPINIONS

This site is Mark's creation and I am sure we are all grateful for all the work he puts in, anyway I for one am. THANKS MARK.

But I do not agree with with many things Mark does, but the old adage applies "you can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

I think that Mark is far to pro CIV3 and seems to be anti-ctp to an extent, well that is the general feeling that I get. Some comments that he has made in the past seemed a little derogatory of ctp to me, but I can't think of any right now, and can't be bothered to look. (busy/lazy) On the other hand most posters are in the Civ3 section, maybe he is pandering to the majority.

Maybe a part of the Civ3 forum should be problems and complaints, then those of us who have heard of all the complaints can just avoid this place. Let the whiners have their own section.

Personnally I think all of the civ genre games including ctp 1&2 have strong points and weaknesses. Of them all, after many years of gaming, I now feel that ctp2 with the apolyton modded versions is the most enjoyable. But I still like to play civ3 civ2 ctp.


Mark, keep it up man, great site.