29-07-2002 20:13									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Why Kurds? Stockholm is a long way from northern Iraq.

We had a couple of cases where traditionally-minded Kurdish immigrant families offed their daughters for such terrible offenses as wanting to choose their husbands themselves and having the extremely poor taste of choosing Swedes! In Sweden, can you imagine. Now, however righteous such valiant defense of family honour might seem to some Kurds, racist Swedish authorities had the gall to take offense and sentence the perps to prison. So far, so good.

But under pressure from various interests groups, mostly feminists, Swedish newspapers have now abandoned the traditional stance of waiting for convictions before publishing name and picture and have gone on a full disclosure rampage as soon as any Kurd is suspected of killing his daughter. We have one such case right now.

Actually, it's rather entertaining watching the contortions PC groups go through over this issue. On one hand, you can't have medieval rules for women, on the other hand taking Kurds to task over this is clearly racist. The current best solution, practiced daily in Swedish newspapers, is to combine thoughtful feminst analysis with amazing amounts of PC retoric fall-out to arrive at the conclusion that it's Swedish males that are to blame for all of this because, after all, Swedish women occasionally get murdered as well.

It's still the Kurds that we needen't bother the courts with in order to establish their guilt. Go figure.

quote: Has Sweden entered into an alliance with Iraq?

I guess you could say so. Sweden is a part of the European Union, after all.

However, in this particular case it's not so much cheering Saddam for his courageous resistance against the Imperialist Yank Pigs as ardent feminist zeal. Anti-Americanism sure makes for strange bedfellows.

	29-07-2002 20:26									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger This still doesn't make any sense, Ned. Say we posit a 50% deflation rate over the space of a year. I borrow 1000$ from a bank at -2% interest. I leave the money in a sock under my bed. At the end of the year, I give them the 980$ I owe them and keep the extra 20$ for myself. Where is the hole in this, please? Claiming that deflation will hurt me will only work if you tell me I have to buy something with the money, and even then the bank loses value on the exchange. The bank will always lose money on negative interest rates, no matter how high deflation goes. This is so self-evident it feels like I'm talking to a child. Did you take any arithmetic classes in school, Ned?

And, let's further assume that deflation is at 10%. That 980 is worth approx. $1080 in constant value buying power. The loan cost you 1080-1000 (you kept 20) = 80.

	29-07-2002 20:28									#63
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quote: I take it that the Supreme Court are morons as well.

I though this went without saying .

Remember this is the body that gave us Plessy v. Ferguson.

	29-07-2002 20:30									#64
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From the article:

Braceras, another Bush appointee, said:"There's no constitutional right not to be inconvenienced or even embarrassed."

I dont know about anyone else, but the unlawful detention of over 1000 immigrants and a nationwide program of racial profiling against young arab men are a little bit more than "inconveniences" or "embarassments". Those pesky amendments are mucking everthing up, arent they? And in either case, I would question whether one significant, important lead has turned up because of it.



Imran

Dave

	29-07-2002 20:36									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, let's further assume that deflation is at 10%. That 980 is worth approx. $1080 in constant value buying power. The loan cost you 1080-1000 (you kept 20) = 80.

Think of it this way Ned. Assume you have no money and no possesions of any kind. Nothing at all!

Now, if you do nothing, you will still have nothing in a years time. Nada, zilch, squat. But with KH's loan, you would have $20 at the end of the year, in your hand. Irrespective of the value of the $20, it is still more than zero. Ego, you have made a profit.

	29-07-2002 20:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger If you're going to only be able to lend at a negative interest rate it would be better to stash the money in a vault. At least that way it's still all there when you come back for it in a year's time...

I think the problem really arises in buying and selling. Assume real estate prices are falling at 10% a year. (Japan has a problem like this.) If you borrow money to buy real estate, you have to factor in the deflation of the asset you are buying to determine your total cost of the loan. If the banks are unwilling to loan at below 0%, then the real cost of the loan is 10%.

Now contrast this to an "inflationary" environment.

For years in the US, buying a house was more than a smart move. Assume a 10% annual increase in value and a 10% loan. What is your real interest rate? 0. On top of that, we in the US can write off the interest on home loans.

Today, house prices are falling in California. The stock market is down big time. Real interest rates are very high - even at 1.5%.

	29-07-2002 20:46									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Think of it this way Ned. Assume you have no money and no possesions of any kind. Nothing at all! Now, if you do nothing, you will still have nothing in a years time. Nada, zilch, squat. But with KH's loan, you would have $20 at the end of the year, in your hand. Irrespective of the value of the $20, it is still more than zero. Ego, you have made a profit.

Right. However, since you have no assets, no one will loan you the money.

Take the example one step further. I the bank can hold the 1000 for a year and make 10%. Or I can, for example, make 10 loans (lets forget margin and other requirements for a moment) and make 80 per. That 100 vs. 800 in real value. Which is better?

	29-07-2002 21:29									#68
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Ned, it is not possible to put the interest rate at 0% or lower. It just isn't possible. At this point in time the interest rates are the lowest they have been in 60 years and your logic is all wrong. You should take an economics course instead of saying arbitrary statements. If interest rates are lowered to 0% massive waves of deflation and other shocks would occur. So therefore economically, your argument illogical.

The stock market is going back up by the wya.

	29-07-2002 21:52									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I take it that the Supreme Court are morons as well. I though this went without saying . Remember this is the body that gave us Plessy v. Ferguson.

And Gore v. Bush, the granddaddy of moronic decisions!

	29-07-2002 22:23									#70
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Nobody's mentioned Timothy McVeigh, so I thought I would.

	29-07-2002 22:45									#71
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Well Ned is right and Ned is wrong. Nothing wrong with the theory of what he is saying, but the practical application wouldn't work because most people can't wrap their mind around the concept.

	29-07-2002 22:47									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Nobody's mentioned Timothy McVeigh, so I thought I would.

Why?

	29-07-2002 22:56									#73
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He's a non-Arab terrorist.

	29-07-2002 23:11									#74
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quote: And Gore v. Bush, the granddaddy of moronic decisions!

Actually that was a good decision .

	30-07-2002 00:37									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman He's a non-Arab terrorist.

The non-arab to arab terrorist ratio is probably 1:100000, anti-US terrorists mind you (not counting IRA, Serb nationalists and stuff like that). I still dont think Arabs will be detained, and rightfully so.

quote: However, in this particular case it's not so much cheering Saddam for his courageous resistance against the Imperialist Yank Pigs as ardent feminist zeal. Anti-Americanism sure makes for strange bedfellows.

Its sick that Swedes would take Saddams side over the US. Saddam is a potential threat to everyone in the world. He is not merely a loose cannon, hes a loose vile of anthrax, sarin nerve gas, and maybe even nuclear device. He needs to be removed for this threat he poses towards the SU and most of the rest of the world aswell. With or without Swedes we will bring him down.

Kman

	30-07-2002 00:38									#76
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I don't really know what scares me more, the fact that it could happen, or the possibility that most Americans would stand for it

	30-07-2002 00:47									#77
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I second that sentiment, Orange.

I don't think "most Americans" would stand for it, but that may be overly optomistic of me.

As to the news article that started this whole discussion, it seems to me that some gummint flunkies said some stupid things at a conference. I wouldn't jump the gun here and start organizing the resistance.

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 00:50									#78
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[qutoe]We saw no sabatoge from the Japanese. I also note they were locked up. Whether being locked up was the only reason for there being no sabatoge is left to speculation and revisionist history. [/quote]
it was wrong. there's no bones about it. besides, the japanese that managed to leave the internment camps by volunteering for military service ended up as some of the most loyal and determined units in europe.

quote: I take it that the Supreme Court are morons as well.

right, it's not like the supreme court has made any bad decisions in the past...
scott v sanford, for instance...

	30-07-2002 00:59									#79
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out of curiosity I asked my mom, a pretty mainstream american centrist...and she said that she honestly didn't know if she would do anything about it so much as silently condem it

I think as long as it's not them, most Americans wouldn't really care

	30-07-2002 01:25									#80
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Scary... like that famous quote about the guy not saying anything when the Nazis came for other people... and then there was no one left to speak for him when they came for him.

	30-07-2002 01:29									#81
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Yeah, that came to mind.

I don't think it will come to that, though, Imran. I really don't. The so-called "average American" doesn't get much credit (I mean, seriously, it's pretty clear that the politicians think we're all idiots, isn't it?). Personally, though I do despair at times, I think the average American would oppose such a draconian move.

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 01:52									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Scary... like that famous quote about the guy not saying anything when the Nazis came for other people... and then there was no one left to speak for him when they came for him.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me —
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.





In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.




When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church — and there was nobody left to be concerned.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


there are the 3 versions of what he said.

	30-07-2002 01:58									#83
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I think americans would indeed react and fiercly if something like this was going on.

I know Europeans would (if there even was a question about it).


Sometimes you dont give yourselves enough credit me thinks

	30-07-2002 01:58									#84
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Unless I'm completely misremembering, more Arab Americans are Christians than Muslims anyway. I'm amazed that I haven't seen that pointed out already.

Cheers,

	30-07-2002 02:09									#85
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quote: With or without Swedes we will bring him down.

Would it make any difference?

I mean, it's obvious that mighty army of Sweden couldn't participate. They might lose their hair nets, not to mention how conditions in war zone clearly aren't occupationally safe.

	30-07-2002 02:28									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Would it make any difference? I mean, it's obvious that mighty army of Sweden couldn't participate. They might lose their hair nets, not to mention how conditions in war zone clearly aren't occupationally safe.

Too true. And pink might be fashionable in gay bars and on the catwalks, but it might not make for the best camouflage when running around fighting a war.

OTOH, sexy Mid Eastern girls obviously love us. . .

	30-07-2002 03:46									#87
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Well Ned is right and Ned is wrong. Nothing wrong with the theory of what he is saying, but the practical application wouldn't work because most people can't wrap their mind around the concept.

jimmytrick, Do you know how economists treat the value of stocks? Greenspan recent testimony suggests that economist are only now beging to understand that the value of individuals portfolios is treated as available cash by the average investor. He said the collapse of stock prices was having a strong negative pressure buying, and was certain forcing down prices on big ticket items like houses. (Which helps explain why house prices are falling even as interest rates plummet.)

I think it can be viewed on both sides of the equation. But what do economists think?

	30-07-2002 07:55									#88
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quote: And, let's further assume that deflation is at 10%. That 980 is worth approx. $1080 in constant value buying power. The loan cost you 1080-1000 (you kept 20) = 80

We already posited a 50% deflation rate, sweetheart. It doesn't matter. The loan didn't cost me anything. At the beginning of the year I had a sock, a bed and no money. At the end of the year I had a sock, a bed and 20$.

	30-07-2002 08:03									#89
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Every time you try to argue your way out of the hole you've dug for yourself it gains you an extra tick in the moron department...

A negative interest rate would result in people borrowing massive amounts of money to simply squirrel it away. And be paid for doing so. Jesus Christ...

	30-07-2002 08:05									#90
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Ned is still going on about this? He obviously is pushing himself deeper in the mud....

He is trying to act like he is the economist around here when he doesn't have the slightest clue. Even frogger knows that if there was a negative interest rate people would borrow more and also be paid a little extra to do so. Effectively bankrupting the country. Has it happened before? Well in Mexico, the bank policies of one ex-President though not as similar as what ned is saying did exhaust the entire banking system in a year.