30-07-2002 00:12									#31
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yeah, modern Republicans and Democrats are different than they used to be...

not to mention that the meanings of Conservatism and Liberalism change depending on if you're discussing modern times or pre-1900

	30-07-2002 00:12									#32
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Adam Smith would be so confused if he landed in the US today

	30-07-2002 00:12									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Liberals think people are generally bad and hence don't trust people with their money and don't believe people will give to charity on their own. thanks

Modern Liberalism as headed by Gladstone was a reaction against laissez-faire capitalism which stood around picking it's arse while 1.5 million starved to death in Ireland and an estimated 10 million starved to death in India. It was the photos of starving dogs eating dead babies that really sealed it.

Charity in such conditions is like trying to plug a volcano by sticking your thumb in it.

	30-07-2002 00:13									#34
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As I've said before, left and right are not sufficient to explain politics. I'm conservative, though I support many "liberal" ideas. (e.g., legalization of drugs, abolishment of unenforcable laws.) I am quite oppiosed to any governmental power other than the military and judicial systems. Furthermore, I think the military should be kept at home, but ready to strike and eliminate any enemy of the american people. I support term limits for congressmen, and think there are far too many bureaucratic organizations. (IRS, DPS, EPA)

I'd calll myself a "screw'em all," but for some reason people take that badly.

	30-07-2002 00:13									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Are you saying republicans opposed the abolition of slavery?

Ah, but the Republicans really weren't the 'right' in those days. The Democrats believed in liberal economy, while the Republicans were for subsidizing big buisness and for big government.

	30-07-2002 00:20									#36
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quote: No. You maybe, but I don't even think you qualify as a conservative. You'd scare most conservatives, even the politicians.

Why would I?

quote: If this were so, they'd be more likely to support programs such as Drug Rehab, Welfare, etc. The majority of conservatives don't.

I doubt that... simply because conservatives believe that people are fully capable of not needing things like welfare. And any help for people would be by charity (because those who have money are, like all men, naturally good, and would give money)

quote: Bullshit. Conservatives and Liberals (mainly, Democrats and Republicans) stand almost equal on censorship. If anything, I'd expect Democrats and Liberals to be against censorship over Conservatives and (edit Republicans. Tipper doesn't count.

All I know is that Gore favoured censorship while Bush don't.

quote: To give those less fortunate a better chance, since they deserve one.

Yeah but as soon as these people succeed, they get robbed... Then when they die (and the estate tax needs to be paid), their children will be artificially set back to some determined beginning point.


thanks

	30-07-2002 00:23									#37
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* Asher jumps into the thread
People should not associate "conservative" with "religion", that's just a sideeffect of some of the certain parties and regions. Some of us conservatives have hearts and aren't religious.

	30-07-2002 00:24									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, but the Republicans really weren't the 'right' in those days. The Democrats believed in liberal economy, while the Republicans were for subsidizing big buisness and for big government.

Yes, and the democrat and Republican parties eentually switched places. What's your point?

	30-07-2002 00:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Why would I?

Because you're an illogical fascist

quote: I doubt that... simply because conservatives believe that people are fully capable of not needing things like welfare. And any help for people would be by charity (because those who have money are, like all men, naturally good, and would give money)

Hardly

quote: All I know is that Gore favoured censorship while Bush don't.

Bush Sr. did. Besides, not all republicans are 100% conservative on all issues, and not all Democrats are 100% Liberal on all issues. Especially when, on a political spectrum, American Democrats and republicans are so close anyway

quote: Yeah but as soon as these people succeed, they get robbed... Then when they die (and the estate tax needs to be paid), their children will be artificially set back to some determined beginning point.

What the hell are you on about now?

	30-07-2002 00:26									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Severn Yes, and the democrat and Republican parties eentually switched places. What's your point?

He wanted to join the line to shoot down Verto on the Republican = Conservative = Anti-Slavery comment.

	30-07-2002 00:37									#41
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Gore favored censorship? How so?

GW Bush CERTAINLY did. Remember when a a joke Web site emerged that mimicked his campaign site very effectively? Bush complained about it and wanted it shut down. When it wwas pointed out the site owner was using freedom of speech, Bush said, "There should be limits on freedom."

And let's not forget Ari Fleischer's little "People need to watch what they say" remark after September 11.

	30-07-2002 01:23									#42
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well, Tipper was a big advocate of censorship...especially with music...it probably would have rubbed off on Gore too, i'm willing to concede that much to him...

	30-07-2002 01:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by orange well, Tipper was a big advocate of censorship...especially with music...it probably would have rubbed off on Gore too, i'm willing to concede that much to him...

No, she didn't. Everyone shouts out about her advocating censorship. She advocated warning labels so parents could judge the content of the CDs their kids bought. There wasn't any call to legally restrict people from saying anything.

The most ardent calls for actual censoring I've seen put forth in legislative bills has come from the right, such as censoring freedom of expression (flag burning ammendment) or what people can say on the internet.

	30-07-2002 01:57									#44
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warning labels is, in my mind, still in the same category as censorship

	30-07-2002 02:04									#45
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No it isn't. It doesn't censor anything. Censorship is the act of trying to prevent someone from saying something. It isn't warning people that the content inside uses bad words.

	30-07-2002 02:04									#46
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Where's the biting and scratching that amuses us so much?!

	30-07-2002 02:06									#47
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*Bites and scratches Ecth*

No Rabies jokes, either.

	30-07-2002 02:07									#48
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The article was amusing, so long as you understand (as is clearly stated) that it was written by a conservative. By and large, the premise is true: conservatives think liberals are misguided fools (and state this in the most condescending way possible), and liberals think conservatives are evil. If they find those who aren't, it's strange and worthy of discussion.

This isn't particularly earthshattering news. These are two opposed ideologies. Accordingly, they must demonize one another (see: The "Evil Empire" vs. the "Imperialist Capitalist Pig-Dogs").

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 02:07									#49
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I'm talking about biting and scratching between opposing "debate" sides, opera singer.

	30-07-2002 02:09									#50
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Oh...and I thought it was foreplay. Sorry!

	30-07-2002 02:11									#51
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Yes, that too. Foreplay of the banning spree

	30-07-2002 02:13									#52
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There are plenty of intellectual, ethical, and emotional shibboleths used by both sides to make them feel superior about themselves and demonize or infantilize their opponents, but pure conservativism and pure liberalism amount to the same thing: paddling in circles. Only balancing them moves the canoe ahead.

	30-07-2002 02:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, she didn't. Everyone shouts out about her advocating censorship. She advocated warning labels so parents could judge the content of the CDs their kids bought.

This is a full listing of what she advocated:

1) "questionable" lyrics were printed and provided with their respective recordings

2) "objectionable" album covers were sold in plain brown wrappers (or sold in areas segregated from other albums)

3) rock concerts were rated

4) MTV segregated "questionable" video recordings into specific late night viewing slots

The group she founded has also argued that argued that virgin minds were being poisoned by "hidden messages and backward masking."

	30-07-2002 03:16									#54
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Silly editorial, he really misses the point. More of a difference between absolutist vs. more relativistic systems of morality and the difference between a rather a rather simple-minded insistence on calling X people evil and leaving it at that and an often mushy-headed insistence in trying to control all the factors that supposedly contribute to badness. You can see this in the recent corporate debacle, Bush in a classical conservative moves wants to lock up the "bad apples" which supposedly will get the job done (which it won't too many systemic problems, american capitalism has horrific agency problems) while liberals want to regulate thing (which probably won't work much better).

	30-07-2002 03:21									#55
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two posts in a row that 'skipped'

I sense a glitch in the matrix

	30-07-2002 03:42									#56
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Yep, Dino... much more than warning labels.

Hell, why do you think artists such as Twisted Sister were in such outrage over it? And it was deemed even censorship by acts that weren't targeted. I remember Bob Denver appeared before the commission to argue against Tipper and censorship message.

But Boris would rather close his eyes and accuse the right of censorship while the left is free of faults .

	30-07-2002 04:33									#57
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quote: The Democrats believed in liberal economy, while the Republicans were for subsidizing big buisness and for big government.

Ermm... the Democrats essentially supported feudalism. I wouldn't exactly call them advocates of a liberal economy...

quote: Yes, and the democrat and Republican parties eentually switched places. What's your point?

Saying that the Democrats and Republicans of the 19th century are politically related to the Democrats and Republicans (switched or not) today is quite absurd. Besides maybe Strom and Jesse, I don't think anyone supports feudalism any more , and both parties tend tend to support protectionism/corporate welfare.

	30-07-2002 04:38									#58
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IIRC, the Democrats of 1860, who had become more Southern, were opposed to tariffs that the North supported. Also they were for less government and more state power. That is fairly liberal for the age.

	30-07-2002 04:41									#59
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But they supported feudalism! I consider them to farther away from from liberalism than the Republicans...

	30-07-2002 04:45									#60
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The Republicans were for subsidizing big business. They were pre-Socialists. The Democrats were the liberals of the country. Any 'liberal' in the nation was a member of the Democratic Party. Two words: Thomas Jefferson.