01-08-2002 20:10									#61
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Yeah, that was an extremely painful 2 turns. Cleopatra is now on my everlivingshitlist. Every Egyptian civ I encounter from now on will pay the price.

France was awesome. The deal, IIRC, was actually closer to 300 gpt than 200. I think it was in the 280s. I almost couldn't believe it. I was selling them other stuff at the time, too! I distinctly remember another trade for over 1000 gold up front and a bunch of gpt. Joany was one wealthy wench.

This raises two questions:

1) If France could do that with their so-so terrain (and good traits), why can't the other AIs do it?

2) If France had that type of economic power, why were they 3 or more techs behind me throughout the Industrial Age?

-Arrian

p.s. I was on the edge of my seat until I built Hoover (after which I just wanted to get to Fission and be done), and because of that, I failed to pay any sort of attention to saving the game periodically or taking screenshots.

I do have the autosaves from the end, which should include the 1560 save. I think I'll post attach that one when I get home tonight... perhaps if people (Aeson, hint, hint) might take a good look at the situation and tell me if there was any other way I could have prevented attack.

Last edited by Arrian on 01-08-2002 at 20:41

	01-08-2002 21:37									#62
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Ok, at least it's good to know that I was not the only one being hit out of the blue. Same modus operandi, different timing by Cleo. Violated RoP while being polite in early medieval and conquered two or three cities immediately. The only reason why I survived was that Egypt didn't have enough fast units on my part of the continent to follow through before they were hit by my French and Iroquois allies.

Egypt got wiped out eventually, along with the Germans. France mas mediocre but had more money than the Iros. India was a tech *killer*, two to three techs ahead of everybody for a while in late industrial. Germany died quickly once Mao had the bigger base.

	01-08-2002 22:33									#63
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Arrian -

Ouch! France certainly was the best AI in my game as well (I think that's the winner trait/build combo), they even kept me hard pressed for techs until they eventually declared war on me.. taking my silk city. Egypt was my buffer through the whole game so far, they had a city built on the silks (between my city and the rest of my empire) as well. I was just about to gift mine to them when France attacked. They had a ROP with Egypt, I had a MPP though, so they never got through after the first turn. I had so much cash that the rest of the world was at war with France very quickly, which ruined their economy over the next 20 turns, and I took a very large tech lead with ToE.

If I had to guess, I would think Egypt attacked because of the combination of a ROP (seeing your core cities as vulnerable) and your silk city. The AI seems to be more agressive when it has a shot of taking out luxury/resource cities or your capitol. The few ROP violations I can remember have been where the AI attacked my capitol. I kept a 3 deep line of scouts at the choakpoint, and never signed ROP's with anyone. My silk city was too exposed though.

	01-08-2002 22:53									#64
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If I had stacked rows of explorers on the border, I probably could have held them off while losing only a couple of cities. All I needed was 4 turns. But I had exactly 1 unit - an old scout. My workers were all shift+A automated and were finishing up my mountains (unroaded as yet) so I was only able to muster 2 of them.

Now, if I was next to a large, rich, advanced and wonderous civ which had no defenses, I would have attacked too (actually, one has to wonder why they waited so long). But it still sucked.

Re: France's power. I think this is a combination of the civ traits and build preferences. I think Egypt has a pretty good combo as well. China and India appear to need work. I throw out the Iroquois from my game b/c of the early worker purchase. Germany sucks, but we knew that.

-Arrian

	01-08-2002 23:15									#65
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Arrian -- amazing game, incredible story.
What city improvements did you build when? And how did you keep the AI civs at bay, before the discovery of nationalism/mpps?
Should we name the scenario "Give appeasement a chance"?

	01-08-2002 23:43									#66
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Robber Baron,

I made it a priority to claim all of the luxuries I could get to (silks, spices, incense, gems) and I succeeded. I roaded them quickly and also built a road to Egypt (in order to do so, I signed a RoP agreement... which I just renewed as a matter of course for the rest of the game. DOH!). Trading with the AI makes them happy. So I traded. Occasionally, I gifted. I tended to accept whatever the AI offered me for luxuries or resouces (sold saltpeter to Iroquois, iron to Egypt). I would tweak the tech deals, but never to the point of bankrupting the AI. By the end, they all loved me... even Cleo*****. Bismarck was merely "polite" but I don't think he's allowed to be "gracious."

I built a lot of cities in the tundra wastes to claim luxuries. Most of these were coastal, so I bought them harbors. Eventually, every one of them was actually producing quite a bit of uncorrupted trade, since I purchased courthouses and later police stations. With libraries and universities, they were quite worthwhile.

My core cities were Washington, New York (north, on the river), Boston (east, on the coast) and Philly (west, on the river w/lots of hils).

Washington built, IIRC:

scout
scout
worker
settler
settler
temple
settler
*added two Iroquois workers*
Great Library
library
settler
marketplace
Sistine Chapel
cathedral
university
Adam Smith's
bank
Newton's
colosseum
factory
hospital

New York:

settler
temple
settler
library
Hanging Gardens
marketplace
courthouse
Bach
cathedral
university
bank
colosseum
factory
Hoover
hospital
police station
UN

Boston:

Temple
Colossus
library
marketplace
harbor
aqueduct
granary
courthouse
cathedral
university
bank
colosseum
factory
hospital

Philly:

granary
settler
temple
settler
settler
courthouse
library
marketplace
cathedral
university
bank
Wall Street
colosseum
factory
ToE
hospital
police station

I think that's pretty close. The outlying cities often built a worker, then started on temples. The cities that were really far out (hopeless until democracy at least) provided the empire with workers, paricularly when it came time to build the railroads.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 01-08-2002 at 23:50

	02-08-2002 02:00									#67
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Well, I just finished my game... pretty uneventful diplomatic win. I reloaded after and tried to get a 20k culture victory, but the AI's launched far too quickly. I still needed 80 more turns (1788AD).

On a side note, this is by far the most Explorers I've ever built... 281 altogether.

Attachment: diplo.jpg
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	02-08-2002 02:05									#68
	Full PM-box? Change here!

...always trust Aeson to come up with the most extreme tactics imaginable...

	02-08-2002 02:16									#69
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Aeson,

#1 - yeah, that's what I should have done. The explorer wall.

#2 - wow, china got wasted in your game, huh?

#3 - was 1650 the first UN vote opportunity you had? If so, wow, I was 70 yrs. faster even though I screwed up the UN prebuild (as a matter of fact, had I timed the prebuild properly, I would have built the 3-4 turns faster... which means I would have survived the Egyptian attack w/o reloading).

-Arrian

	02-08-2002 04:53									#70
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Arrian --
Thanks for the knowledge. I'll be studying this one!

	02-08-2002 10:04									#71
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Yah, India and Germany were both at war with China for most of the Industrial era. As for the tech rate, it was pretty slow the whole game. I was bleeding the AI's dry (except for Egypt), and so almost every tech I researched myself, then sold it to everyone else. I didn't pre-build the UN at all, or build hospitals until I had Ecology later, so that was probably the difference. No need to prebuild when I had a 4-5 tech lead at the time, and since I was keeping the tech lead rather easily, I just didn't want to deal with any added pollution by letting my cities grow.

	02-08-2002 17:55									#72
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Aeson,

I bet the hospitals were the difference. I was milking the AI economies dry as well and was doing all the research. But I researched sanitation right after I got Scientific Method, but before ToE was done. I built the hospitals right away. The pollution wasn't that bad. Industrious workers in democracy w/replaceable parts take care of it right quick.

quote: No need to prebuild when I had a 4-5 tech lead at the time

That's what I thought. I started my UN prebuild when I began researching fission. In retrospect, had I not been so damn complacent, I could have built it around 1540AD.

-Arrian

	02-08-2002 19:54									#73
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I'm playing both versions at the same time, following roughly the same strategy for both. I'm at about 570 A.D. right now.

The AI seems to have expanded similarly in both cases. But the their relative strengths as well as their power compared to mine, are a bit different. When I'm done, I'll look into my saves to see what they are building in each case.

It's probably because the AI civs in the "killer" version are a bit stronger than the standard version, but one thing that is very different is their aggression. The standard AI have never even once asked for tribute. The killer AI asked for tribute about five times so far. Then, out of the blue, India landed a galley with two warriors next to New York. I immediately gifted them 50gpt, and already had lots of other deals with them to keep them happy and to give me furs (which I didn't need anyway). It didn't matter. Gahndi sneak attacked anyway. He was the most powerful of the AI's at the time (which was not the case in the standard AI version). Now the entire world is allied against him, so from now on the comparison between the two games will no longer be valid. B*st*rd! He spoiled my experiment!

	02-08-2002 20:23									#74
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Funny, I received only one demand for tribute. I rejected it by mistake, but was not attacked. I was playing the "killer" version. I wonder if it had anything to do with my histograph ranking (#1 from start to finish).

Funny that India was strong in yours...

I was looking over the map last night, and there are a couple of things I noticed:

1. we were EXTREMELY fortunate with luxuries and strategic resources. We had tons of stuff to trade, and hardly needed imports. That more than made up for all that tundra.

2. India was kinda screwed w/regard to luxuries, as was Egypt (I think that's the only reason Egypt wasn't as rich as France. They must have had to pay for a lot of imports).

-Arrian

	02-08-2002 20:44									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I wonder if it had anything to do with my histograph ranking (#1 from start to finish). Funny that India was strong in yours...

I'm sure it did. Specifically, the power ranking (not score or culture). India was a bit higher than me in power (not in score), but they were less advanced in tech, and certainly not as rich as France. The main reason they did better in the killer version was the fact that they, not the Iroquois, built the Lighthouse.

quote: we were EXTREMELY fortunate with luxuries and strategic resources.

I guess I made it too easy... ...I didn't want Aeson to be the only one to win this game...

You probably noticed also that I put Germany far away from us, and next to China for a offense-defense matchup, and the friendly, yet expansionist Iroquois next to us, who were supposed to compete for the luxuries at the choke point.

	02-08-2002 21:59									#76
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I'm far enough along in the game that spoliers won't spoil it for me. I will post a summary (with screenshots!) when I'm finished (maybe tonight), but just thought I'd chime in with some real differences in my game (standard version) from the others listed.

China is the big dog, having eliminated Germany in the early middle ages (with Riders, I suspect), and well on its way to settling much of the former Germany (declared war on India when India had settled approximately 3 cities in the former German lands). I don't think there's any way I will be able to outresearch China to the UN unless Mao bogs down in unending warfare.

France and Egypt went to war early. Fought to a draw. Don't recall the histograph, but Joan and Hiawatha control about equal empires, with Cleo just slightly smaller (all of which makes me nervous as my undefended and larger empire must look pretty inviting).

France (only one or two turns after I traded a luxury, an RoP, and a bunch of gold for a wonder-enabling tech Joan beat me to) landed a single swordsman next to my city which built both the Colussus and the Great Lighthouse. Next turn she took the city - immediately faced an alliance of Hippie Sam, Cleo and Hiawatha. City flipped back to me before the war concluded.

A real summary when I conclude, but a couple of thoughts: (1) the scenario sounded really fun to me, but I'm actually not enjoying it all the much. I haven't paid nearly enough attention to tile improvements, city laborer allocation and pre-builds, simply because of a lack of interest. And (2) the little touches you've put in are great alexman ("We Love the Hippie Day")

Catt

	02-08-2002 22:25									#77
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Sorry to hear you're not having fun, Catt.
I agree, it kinda has the feel of an OCC game, but it goes slower.

As for the AI build priorities in the two versions, I checked a couple of saves, and it doesn't make much sense to me so far. It seems that the AI builds are influenced much more by geography and actions of neighbors, than it is by the "build-often" list.

Some observations from 50 A.D.:

1. France put a big emphasis on libraries in both versions, building them before temples. Perhaps the key to her power?
   
2. Nobody yet built any harbors, courthouses, or marketplaces, despite being in the Middle Ages.
   
3. In the entire world outside the USA, there was only one granary. It was in a Chinese city. There's nothing wrong with that... except that it was in the killer version, where growth is no longer in their build list!
   
4. Perhaps the build priorities come into play later. So far both versions of the AI have been focusing on building settlers and military units to expand as fast as possible.
   

	02-08-2002 22:34									#78
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[*]Nobody yet built any harbors, courthouses, or marketplaces, despite being in the Middle Ages.
[/list] [/QUOTE]

Funny, I replayed the standard version and couldn't trade with the Chinese until about Nationalism because they hadn't built a single harbor yet. The Germans were down to one city and needed until Rocketry to build one.

	02-08-2002 22:38									#79
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Alexman,

I'm glad you made it "easy." I'd hate to see hard

Catt,

Not enjoying it, huh? That's too bad. Maybe you'll like the next AU challenge better.

For some reason, I really enjoyed this one. I was a man on a mission. I think I liked it so much because it's been a loooooooong time since I played "peaceful builder" style.

-Arrian

	02-08-2002 22:42									#80
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Ooh, crossposts.

Alexman,

No markets or courthouses? Damn! That was the whole POINT (production/wealth or trade) right? Wierd.

My AI's clearly built their harbors, since I was able to trade with them all right away once navigation was out there. That was key, as a matter of fact.

-Arrian

	02-08-2002 23:05									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian My AI's clearly built their harbors, since I was able to trade with them all right away once navigation was out there.

I think the problem was that I was looking too early. At the first part of the middle ages (50 A.D.) most of their cities had NO improvements because they basically just finished expanding. I'll look at later saves this evening.

	03-08-2002 03:23									#82
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HOLY MAMA!!

I got up to building the TOE last night, and had to stop.

I'm finally in the tech lead, and am selling Atomic Theory and Electronics... I just sold Egypt Atomic Theory for 54 gpt + 1370 gold, and now this!!!

I ain't taking chances... she can have it for 165 gpt...

Attachment: egypt trade.jpg
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	03-08-2002 03:27									#83
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Oops sorry, can;t read it... she's offering me 265 gpt!!

	03-08-2002 04:57									#84
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I give up my game, because I can't win it anymore. Here is my story:

I planned to try to win this one by culture with 100000 points. Therefor, I didn't care much about research, I traded advances up to Education and stopped researching then. At this point, I had the whole southern part of my continent settled, and 4 luxuries connected. Now I begun to build cities between the existing ones. 1 tile apart, tightest. Each city got the build order Temple, Library, University, Cathedral, Colosseum. After a while, I had about 80 cities. Since I was researching with only 1 scientist and put 100% into taxes, I could buy improvements fairly quick.

Soon after 1000AD Egypt attacked me suddenly and without a visible reason. Cleo had been polite, we were trading nicely and I in no way had bankrupted her or so. But she attacked. I made alliances against her with France and the Iroquois, but that didn't help much. She took 9 of my cities, before I could finally make peace, violating alliances, of course. With luxury gifts to my former allies, I got them slowly back to polite.

In the following time, the taken cities slowly began to flip back. By 1800, 4 of them were mine again. I disbanded the legionaries, making libraries in the cities. Meanwhile some of the AI civs were in the modern age already, while I was still in the medieval age. When my overall culture was about 80000 and I was making about 700 per turn, the Chinese came over me, again without any visible reason. They launched a BIG attack, with all their modern weapons. I made an alliance with Egypt, but they didn't much help me. The Chinese landed transport after transport with Infantries, Tanks and Mech Infs. They took in a couple of turns about 15 cities and razed some more. And the worst is, they destroyed my FP, almost ruining my economy.

By giving them 1 more city I made peace and tried to repair the damages. I still was making over 600 culture per turn, but I could not go far enough ahead of the 2nd by culture (India). I was not very close to have twice as much culture as they, and since I had lost about 1/3 of my cities, my culture speed was pretty much slowing down. I made some tries so save the situation, although with a ruined country and without a FP there was not much I could do. I barely could keep all culture improvements up, no chance to build more or even rushbuy some. About 5 turns later I got the final K.O. The Chinese extorted spices, I gave in, and they attacked the same turn! I had nothing more to give for an alliance, so I had to take it alone. And not enough, that the Chinese came with Battleships, Carriers with Bombers, Tanks and Mech Infs against the rest of my workers and 2 scouts, they allied up with the Indians, who came with the same amount of troops. After I lost about 15 or 20 more cities, I could make peace with China for a city again. China immediately attacked Egypt. They were obviously out for blood and didn't care much about who was the victim. But India still refused to talk with me and continued to burn my defenseless cities. I will have 100000 culture soon, but now my culture compared with the Indians is actually decreasing and I have no chance to get double of their culture anymore. Thus, I lost the game.

A few observations:

- The Indians built the UN in 1812, but till 1922 did not make a single election.

- When the FP is destroyed, you can build a new one (I didn't know that).

- It seems to me, that the AI gets a regular defender in cities they got for peace. The human player gets none. Can somebody confirm this? It would be a cheat (gah, or an AI advantage). There was no chance to move a defender in, as the city they got for peace was in the mid of my empire, not at the border.

- The Chinese were by far the biggest dog. The Indians and Egyptians were second. The Germans got destroyed by the Chinese, the French by the Indians. The Iroquois got severely reduced by the Egyptians. I played the "killer AI" version.

And here's my latest save:

Attachment: sam of the americans, 1922 ad.sav
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	03-08-2002 05:00									#85
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And here's a snapshot of my Borg empire, when it was still halfway intact. Lovely, ain't it?

Attachment: borg.png
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	03-08-2002 05:09									#86
	323 + 171 = 594 !!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Check this out: 323 GPT and that's on top of the 171 GPT deal from some turns earlier. He can't really be generating that kind of wealth but presumably sold some techs. Germany, with only a size two city left gave me > 200 GPT for a while (after they sold Nationalism to everybody). No wars since the early Mao-Bismarck tussle gave everybody time to build up infrastructure. This is the *normal* version btw. I was gunning for Cultural one city > 20000 but will miss it by about 20 turns.

Attachment: chinese trade small.jpg
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	03-08-2002 07:38									#87
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Oh, man, SR, I feel for you... on holiday, give in to the temptation, and you get whacked! Don;t know if you remember, but in MT 1 or 2, Arrian and I got KILLED, and believe me, I share your pain.

KD: I have NEVER gotten that kind of trade... well done!!! I'm gonna post my AAR right after this, but I ain't got 12K+ and 600+ gpt coming in!

BTW, I am fascinated by the different outcomes in the Germany vs China gunfight.

	03-08-2002 07:44									#88
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This game has totally kept me on my toes.

I somehow didn't get off to as strong a start as others have posted... I think it was 'cause of my "great idea" in Size Matters. I tried to Borg my way to cultural dominance, with all cities place 2 or 3 tiles apart. I figured that dozens of verrrry old Temples would be super-powerful... blech. One flip, big whup, some great idea. Sir Ralph executed the concept a million times better than I (although look what THAT got him).

Instead, I ended up with some mediocre cities and territory, and 5 AI cities below the chokepoint... and, I was too slow to get the silks.

So, I sorta screwed it up early, which sharpened me into a building / trading GENIUS! I felt like an old-time 'comprador,' if you know what that is (sort of international traders in SE Asia).

Besides straight-out resource trading (including selling a lot of 0s), I sharpened my skills at identifying the first AI to research a tech, buying it at whatever cost, and then beating that AI to profitable sales to all the others... research arbitrage. One of the tricks: whatever is suggested as your next tech to research, DON'T! That's what the advanced AI civs will go for too... you need to get off the beaten path. Even toward the end (where I am now), the suggestion was to research Fission... as much as that's my goal, I'm researching Computers instead (at a 279 gpt deficit!).

I was terminally behind in tech overall, but scrambled through. I missed the Colossus, which scared the hell out me and totally narrowed my entire mid-game plan to getting Copernicus... which I did, wasting 200+ shields of a Palace pre-build, but it was worth it, great GA as a monarchy.

Actually, that was another big mistake... I should have waited the 10 or so turns for Republic. Later in the game, around Combustion, I changed over from Monarchy to Democracy, and the anarchy was incredibly painful.

I've been able to build the Hanging Gardens, Copernicus, Newton (not in the same city), Smith, TOE, and all SWs. Not to mention my cities... this has been builder delight.

Did anybody else build the Iron Works in Washington? I don;t remember, but I think I moved one tile at the start.

The Iroquois build a city right below the chokepoint... I've been trying to culture bomb it, and have not succeeded. Unfortunately, until I leaped ahead with the TOE, I didn;t have the cashola to really build up the culture of the surrounding cities... now, St. Regis is at 6 pop, and I don't think it's 'flippable.' Anybody got some expert opinions on how and when to do this successfully?

Like Aeson, I've build a human shield with Scouts and Explorers... not quite his level of insanity, but a solid ring around my coasts and any intruding AI cities, and a stack of 5 each on the two tiles above Denver, which is my chokepoint city.

In terms of the AI civs and candidate 'killers,' I gotta say I am scared out of my mind... I actually have a knot in my stomache. Like most reports thus far, the Iroquois are a non-issue... but THE REST are f-cked up strong!

Germany took out China, turned Mao into an OCC on the Falkland Island below India. Very different, I think, from most of the other confrontations.

Now everybody's allied against Germany, except me (no MPPs or alliances, thank you very much!)... I actually feel like that idiot foreign advisor: "OH NO!!"

I DO NOT want wars going on, as the excess troops will at some point look at my juicy cities! ARRRGGHH!

I saw Nanking flip back from Germany to China, btw... made no sense (don;t tell Coracle).

It's a bad bad bad world... see the alliances pic below (in 1605AD, I'm researching Computers).

I am doing my damnedest to keep up good relations. For both resources and techs, I'm selling for less than asked... also, I'm gifting techs like crazy, if AI civs can't afford them. I even got Germany up to gracious. On checking F3, I realized that at one point I had bought 1 French worker long ago... hell, I'm not taking ANY chances, I disbanded the damn thing.

Killer review:

* Egypt: Dear god in heaven, please don;t let Cleo come down on me. She's ahead in tech (FISSION!), and has 7700+ gold!!

* France: GW powerhouse, especially in the Middle Ages, but seems to have lost steam.

* India: Big, but not a player (sorta RL, no insult intended).

* Germany: Well, the offense versus defense thing got decided in my game at least. Bizzymarcky is a bad man.

* Iroquois: Except for their incursionary cities, I wouldn't even think about'em.

I still think starting location is the dominant factor in killer AI civ development. Next up is non-territory-quality 'environment' - meaning, the human player's triggering of the aggression flag. Finally, there's build preferences, which I think are working, although we still need some tweaks. This was a placebo test... next time, let's try the new build preferences with the gloves off.

All in all I'm enjoying the game, although this is a one-time thing... gotta have WAR!!! It's definitely helped my non-military skills; I've never researched / traded this well, and I got taught some good lessons re early location choices.

[Interesting sidenote: Bremen was the German city at the SE peninsula of its territory, near India... there was a Horse resource on the island in between... what happens? If roaded, and at peace with India, does Germany get the Horses?]

Attachment: bad.jpg
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	03-08-2002 07:47									#89
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Here's the world map:

Attachment: map.jpg
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	03-08-2002 07:49									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here's the human shield:

Attachment: human shield.jpg
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