12-08-2002 05:15									#31
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DrJambo, again you have an offensive unit, which has one disadvantage to a tank (it is not a fast mover), but has 3 advantages (airdrop, marine, more modern). This will probably make up for the better AD values. If you are just modding away in order to get the AI producing tanks over your modded paras, then mod a tank to be marine, or airdrop like. That should fix it, even if it is hardly realistic.
Otherwise, just mod the AD values of paras, not the extra options and not the movement.

BTW, I would favor a 2 movement para over a tank as well, if this means that they can attack or fortify after being airdropped. I see a whole bunch of tactics appearing, none are really balancing the game. The only thing you need then is airdroppable artillery, and you can sneak attack every single civ and conquer it in one turn.

DeepO

	12-08-2002 14:22									#32
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YEs DeepO, there is certainly an element of what you are saying in this.

Standard amphibious Marines are never preferred over tanks.

As soon as you add an operational range, they are preferred over tanks. This i have tested sufficiently.

When you keep the regular paratrooper available under Advanced Flight this still appears to be preferred, although only marginally, over the tank. Now this is the problem. The standard para is not and should not be a preferable unit, but rather a specialised unit built under certain occasions only.

Now this is where i have had a brainstorm, albeit as yet untested.

Why not make the paratrooper a defensive unit?

It seems so obvious...! This way they would tend to remain in cities (nearer the airport for the airdrop) since at the moment the AI uses them as mobile ground attack units, rather than airdropping them behind enemy lines. When used by the AI in an offensive manner like spearmen or pikemen sometimes are, they'd be used for pillaging resoucres not assaulting cities. I'm mean lets face it, with stats like 6,8,1 they are never going to be effective offensively!?

WHat do you reckon?

	12-08-2002 16:57									#33
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I'm not very familiar with the concept of defensive roles in the editor, but my gutt tells me that that won't be the final solution either. It is cool when the AI uses them sometimes, and I think setting them to defensive will mean that they are never used offensively. I guess pillaging is also an offensive task... It could be good, but it might give other problems, like paras being preferred over infantry, as again they are more modern, and can airdrop.

I have yet to play a normal 1.29f game, I've been busy playing scenarios since the patch came out, and thus can't comment on how much the paras are build normally as opposed to tanks. But, just one question: when do you see this, is it when the AIs don't have MIs yet? It could be that the AI decides that paras are better defensively as infantry, and that's the reason they will build them more. In previous patches, it already was a problem that the AI will focus on infantry too much, instead of going for tanks, it could be that now it has only shifted to prefer paras over tanks, so the paras are replacing the infantry, not the tanks.

Another idea: why don't you try to mod the AD values of paras down? e.g. set them to 2/8/1? They will still have their mobile defensive role, can pillage, but are not very offensive and maybe don't get choosen by the AI? Again, it is not really realistic, but it may solve the problem.

DeepO

	13-08-2002 17:46									#34
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DeepO,

It's difficult to assess whether the AI would airdrop paras if they were labelled defensive?! As it stands the AI rarely airdrops them even if they are offensive, so i have no idea... only much playtesting would elucidate this?!

In terms of the para in general, the AI certainly prefers the standard para over a standard tank for its offensive unit. This is at least true until they reach modern armor.

The reason that some people might think otherwise makes me think it was because the AI never bothered researching advanced flight (at least not until they already had a big army of tanks). However one simple way of finding out, is to compare what the AI builds without advanced flight (i.e. tanks) with what the AI will build after you give them advanced flight.

	13-08-2002 18:12									#35
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If you want to mod some more, I would first of all try diminishing their attack values. After all, you will most likely not use them in an offensive role (except for pillaging and general nuisance), so it won't affect you. Playtesting this should be easiest, but I agree this is tedious to get it right. I'm not sure about the defensive roles, if you want to find out you need a lot of playtesting as it is not always clear from the first game whether you've seen all.

What ever the results, keep us informed, this intrigues me

DeepO

	13-08-2002 18:13									#36
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I've never seen the AI build or use paras. I only built 1 unit in an early game, found it useless due to its limited range, and have never built them since.

	13-08-2002 18:21									#37
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As you say, playtesting is the only real way... and this is damn time consuming since they are a near modern age unit!! I might see if i can find myself a modern age scenario to work from... any ideas DeepO?

Spencer, what stats do you use for your paras? 6,8,1 range 6 as they were from the box?

	13-08-2002 18:28									#38
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Can you start from a save game? In that case I would use MT IV... but other scenarios I've played are either to far advanced, or aren't in the modern era.

Another idea might be the .bic file of MT V, it is modern age and all the cities are placed and productive, but it is too much advanced. You would have to delete all the MAs, MIs etc... probably starting a new scenario would be easier.

I'm sorry I can't help more, so far I've stayed far away from the editor... game playing time is limited, I generally don't use it to build scenarios myself.

DeepO

	14-08-2002 05:41									#39
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quote: Originally posted by =DrJambo= i did give [paratroopers] a movement of 2!

I tried that hoping that they could then attack after they landed, but it didn't work. They still can't attack until the next turn. Can yours attack immediately after landing, and if so what were your mod settings?

	14-08-2002 06:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by =DrJambo= . . .In terms of the para in general, the AI certainly prefers the standard para over a standard tank for its offensive unit. This is at least true until they reach modern armor. . .

I know, but why?? Whatever the reason it is flawed terribly. I know I had to turn off my governors because they kept turning out para after para.

	14-08-2002 07:01									#41
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Because paratroops would be extremely valuable if the AI knew how to use them right on a large scale (along with Artillery...).

	14-08-2002 13:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Because paratroops would be extremely valuable if the AI knew how to use them right on a large scale (along with Artillery...).

Um, i disagree.

With their current stats of 6,8,1 they'll never be more useful than an equivalent number of tanks. Period.

The AI should build these in a selective manner much like marines. These "what to build" decisions should also be based on the civ's current situation....

i.e. are they at war with another civ on the same continent or another? Obviously paras and marines are much more desirable in inter-continental warfare. Whereas if at war with another civ on the same continent they should only be building tanks and maybe the occasional para.

Furthermore the usefulness of the para is compromised by the helicopter. The helicopter can transport marines too and if modded to carry more than 1 or given a movement of 2 the helicopter can be quite useful. Furthermore the paras also requires an airport.... now how many times would you like to make para drops in frontier cities that don't have airports or even the production capacity to even build one? Here the helicopter triumphs again...

From the perspective of the AI i've even seen the AI make helicopter drops with paras!!! NEver a para airdrop alone.

So, in short, i replaced the para with the modern infantry {Ecology}, given them the para's art and animation and made them upgradable from infantry. This way myself and the AI get another useful unit available for use with the chopper and which doesn't get in the way of the tank or mech infantry preferences.

By using a constant stream of paras against my tanks and without any tanks themselves, the AI is way short of a challenge.

	14-08-2002 23:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by =DrJambo= Spencer, what stats do you use for your paras? 6,8,1 range 6 as they were from the box?

I've never bothered to mod the para stats. CIV3 uses strategic level combat and I havent found a role for tactical units such as paras. There are no bridges to capture or defend, and strategic choke-points where paras could be more useful than mechinf are not common. Also, if you just increase the paras drop-range it unbalances the games other air unit stats.

	15-08-2002 00:03									#44
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DrJambo, land on top of an enemy source of oil with paratroops, and then who's units are better? In a straight-up fight, Paras aren't as good, but that's not how they were designed either (or used in real life). Use them to destroy improvements, cut rail lines, etc. and they can be valuable. Send them to try and capture a city without huge #s and you'll be in trouble. The German's paradrop invasion on Crete was incredibly successful, but they took so many casualties that Hitler ordered that never again would another paradrop on a large scale take place.

	15-08-2002 00:12									#45
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I tried an 8-10-1 Range 8 Para set at 20 shields cheaper. For their continuing war on Rome, the Persians built a force of almost 100 Paras, alongside 3 Tanks

I also have not played 129f unmodded, so perhaps it doesn't prove anything, but it looks like the change was too extreme.

Now trying returning the stats to normal, except for the range and adding a HP bonus of 1 to indicate inherent elite status. I haven't reached the time frame to see them yet. Does the AI assessment of unit values include HP bonuses?

	15-08-2002 07:31									#46
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Certainly landing on an unguarded oil would be an effective use of paras, but since my cities are usually 3-4 squares from my cultural boundary what's the range that I can drop with an un-moded para compared to a tank/mech inf's movement? Even with a 8 range its not really worth the cost to build em.

	15-08-2002 13:20									#47
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Cyclonic,

will you let me know how returning the para's stats back to their original affects the AI's build choice between them and tanks? It may be that the only way the AI will prefer tanks over paras is when their original stats are used (6,8,1 and a range of 6?).

Trip,

with a good cultural border around cities with airports tanks or mech infantry will be equally good at reaching the paras airdrop range of 6 unless a stretch of water is involved. Furthermore the helicopter can easily fulfill this task and doesn't require an airport to be present.

	17-10-2002 21:46									#48
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ARGH!

I have same problem with my 8/10/1, cost 100 (op. range 8) Paratroopers!
(and I though that my MOD was immune on that)


Maybe making them defensive would be a temporary solution.

Although, in that case, we should see will AI build Mech. Inf. when it becomes available (big probelm if it doesn't happen), and whould AI prefer paras aginst ordinary Infantry (not a realy big problem in any case).

	18-10-2002 01:19									#49
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I sent a mail to Speed Bump (Barry Caudill) about this, and here is response:

Me:

quote: Barry, This time I'm not mailing because of the new update. It's just about one little "AI problem" AI is just building Paratroopers instead of Tanks (in this MOD). When AI gets needed tech, it builds them instead of Tanks. (paras have 8/10/1 stats) Is there are way to prevent that AI suicidal behavior? Is the same thing happening with original Civ3 paratroopers? (6/8/1) Is that a BUG? P.S. Luckly this behavoir stops after AI gets Modern Armor. The way it is now, I have no idea what to do. Thanks, Andrej Damjanovic (aka player1) Free MOD developer

Speed Bump:

quote: See Soren's answer below. We just made a change to the AI for PTW that should fix this problem. The AI will no longer put such an emphasis on operational range. Thanks for the update. Sincerely, Barry Caudill QA Manager Firaxis Games

quote: From: Soren Johnson It is almost certainly the increase in operational range... although the stat changes might make a difference too. I would suggest increasing the cost, or decreasing the range and/or the ADM. You could probably get away with just decreasing the range.

For now, I think i'll reduce operation range back to 6 for paratroopers.
(and do same to Helicopters in order to make them balanced "one to another")

	19-10-2002 04:24									#50
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Try Giving Tanks an Op range of 8 but no Airdrop order.

I modded Marines to be the same as Warriors and started a few games to see what the governor would suggest building first.

If they the same, it would suggest them about 50-50.
If one had an op range it would normally build that.
If both had an identical op range but only one could airdrop, it would build them randomly again.

It also didn't matter if one required literature but it could tell if one were amphibious.

Some other units may be picking up op ranges shortly...

	29-10-2002 20:11									#51
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I thought so!!

Thanks for the update Player1, i knew there was something afoot. I hate to say it but i'm actually glad you found the same problem with them as i did. At least i understand why mine didn't work.

I just ended up removing them completely as using their animation for a modern infantry unit. The helicopter more than helps to compensate for no paratroopers.

Oh, by the way, how will your Mod do under PTW? Will you have to completely re-do it, or will it be transferable?

	30-10-2002 01:53									#52
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We'll see...

Maybe just one import function will do all the work?

By the way, version 1.33 or 1.34 will be included in "Best of Net" section in PtW.
(although newest version of MOD is now 1.36)