07-08-2002 06:10									#61
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I voted yes, but yes as in change is needed. Not as a separatist movement.

I recommended fixing up the COL with a series of amendments including but not limited to

* Deputies
* Instant removal from office non-active ministers
* Turn chat rules, info ahead

	07-08-2002 06:43									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax I voted yes, but yes as in change is needed. Not as a separatist movement. I recommended fixing up the COL with a series of amendments including but not limited to * Deputies * Instant removal from office non-active ministers * Turn chat rules, info ahead

the impeachment amendment we are working on isnt going to be instant action, but it is time efficient.

	07-08-2002 06:47									#63
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Sir Ralph and myself were actually trying to communicate REVELANT ideas to you people right before you started makign cracks about resigning.

EDIT:
We were ALSO talking about the city planning, as you can see right before the resigning, me and ralph were talking about where the warriors should be built.

	07-08-2002 06:59									#64
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yeah, and so were Spiffor and myself

but Spiffor, Timeline, SirRalph and myself, none of us declared everything immature and left early. We stuck it out and made the turnchat work, something you didnt do.

We had roughly 20 seconds of JOKING about resignation... which you left pretty much immediately afterwards, even tho we clearly statted we were having fun...and then as soon as you left, we had already reached a conclusion on plans

your lack of patience in that respect is the only reason why you left the chat with such bad impressions. if you would have stayed, you would have seen how a team is supposed to work, and we would have had more turns finished.

	07-08-2002 07:09									#65
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you did not sit through an hour of timeline "joking around". an hour of turnchat no no turns. the resignation incident was just the last straw.

	07-08-2002 07:15									#66
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I wasn't at the entire turnchat the reason for Timeline taking control.

Now, I was informed upon ariving that there was a problem with the tech whoring, NOT Timelines fault

and when the turn got underway, Timeline was doing a fine job and the only incident that arrised was that Punkbass was not present, and we had to make decisions for him

at which point YOU up and left. Not very responsible of an elected minister who we count on, now is it?

Timeline did no irreparible harm, or harm that is very significant. The only harm that has been done is that which was caused by Punkbass. You overreacted, and the turnchat payed for it by being shorter. Not very responsible.

So far, this thread has produced the idea of less ministers, and a way to distribute the duties of the City Planner. After that, what else am I to see?

	07-08-2002 08:00									#67
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The turnchat Officially started 15:11 EST.

I'd like you to note that the techwhoring project was completed around 15:25 (when Ninot showed up) It only took about 14 minutes.

Then the question of what to research came up, and i suggested a quickpoll, because Apoc was absent.

This is pretty standard procedure, is it not? Whenever a minister is absent and hasn't set a minion to monitor his post, we do a quickpoll.

We developed a quickpoll, and Timeline told me not to do it. Many of the people were asking for a quickpoll so that we could just move on. then finally at 15:40 (35 minutes after the techwhoring project) he let me do the quickpoll.

3 minutes later Apoc shows up and supports the quickpoll's decision.

Finally, at 15:48 we started the first turn of the turnchat.

Also note that most turnchats only last an hour or so, so we got 1 turn down and were nearing the end of our turnchat.

Then theres the fact that many people though there was a 4PM turnchat today (myself included).

The above sparked the Skywalker incident. He was in the right in my opinion.

He began to rant about how the turnchat wasnt clearly announced, hwo he just assumed it was at 4 because thats what we do, how Timeline didnt put it in the official "next scheduled turnchat" thread, etc. All valid points. Then Ninot started arguging how it's just a matter of courtesy and they don't have to tell the people anything about the turnchats. Another (sadly) valid point Skywalker rants some more.

that ranting / arguging ended at about 15:58 with this line:

quote: [15:58] (Ninot-) i dunno, im confused

Even our president was confused at this point. Timeline was doing a bang up job.

Then Ninot decides to inform the citizens about whats going on. Finally some sense of the turnchat, only an hour in.

Shortly after that the game began to crawl ahead again, finally.

then came 16:06. We had no city planner. This is the fiasco that other people concentrate on, ignoring the rest. Anyway:

We have no city planner at all, and we have 2 cities that need build orders (Termina and Apolyton). Sir Ralph is busy with his IE duties, and Timeline assumes he's the city planner (He doesn't know many of the governmental offices. He also assumed Ralph was the Science Advisor). He started asking Ralph what his orders were, and Ralph stated his IE orders (for the second time). Timeline then basically shoves the problem at sir ralph, and sir ralph says it's not his job, again. some chatting in all caps ensued.

Then, at 16:12, OPD's plan has been "decided upon" and I'm making points about switching cities (warrior and galley building), and listening to OPD tell me how to change the tiles to max production in Apolyton. Apparently that nugget of information (very valuable) was lost in one of the ranting sessions. He explained it to me and I began promoting it amoungst the ministers.

Some more debating ensued,and at 16:16 me and sir ralph were still discussing the Workable tiles / Production. a Minute laer Ninot and Timeline "resign".

Then they say it was a joke. Fine. I'm very angry but I'm still there.

then three minutes later:

quote: [16:18] (Timeline23) Ninot and Timeline Declare martial law [16:19] * Gepap sees they didn't, scales back plans for coup... I mean, ice cream party! [16:19] * Epistax practices his martial arts [16:19] (Timeline23) lol...

And thats when I left.

	07-08-2002 08:16									#68
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A fair resume

Timeline had some problem, yes.

But of all the problems we came to, how many can we squarely place blame on he and I?

quote: He began to rant about how the turnchat wasnt clearly announced, hwo he just assumed it was at 4 because thats what we do, how Timeline didnt put it in the official "next scheduled turnchat" thread, etc. All valid points. Then Ninot started arguging how it's just a matter of courtesy and they don't have to tell the people anything about the turnchats. Another (sadly) valid point Skywalker rants some more.

As i told Skywalker in the turnchat, and will repeat now.. i CLEARLY stated in the appropriate thread that if anyone wanted to know about turnchat times, to check with Timeline. That post was up for 4 whole days. And it is not Timelines fault if Skywalker and others only read parts of his posts. That isnt incompetence, that is lazyness on behaf of whoever got confused.

quote: then came 16:06. We had no city planner. This is the fiasco that other people concentrate on, ignoring the rest. Anyway:

Well, it is a major issue if a minister is completely ignoring his duties. Timeline got confused perhaps, but in any case, we SHOULD have a propper minister for this position. we decided I would fill that role eventually... which didnt do much cuz you left soon thereafter.

quote: Some more debating ensued,and at 16:16 me and sir ralph were still discussing the Workable tiles / Production. a Minute laer Ninot and Timeline "resign". Then they say it was a joke. Fine. I'm very angry but I'm still there.

im fine with this, but you follow it with this

quote: quote: [16:18] (Timeline23) Ninot and Timeline Declare martial law [16:19] * Gepap sees they didn't, scales back plans for coup... I mean, ice cream party! [16:19] * Epistax practices his martial arts [16:19] (Timeline23) lol... And thats when I left.

Now, i dont know how your memory is, but this was all the same incident, just in a different chat room. And, this second part comes from the normal chat, not the ministers only chat (evidenced lies in that Gepap says something). The normal chat is always plagued with non-relevant info and jokes, and spam (and flooding sometimes ).

I dont know why you state you left for the same issue you state you are fine with, that boggles me.

Now, sure, i admitt it, the turnchat wasn't a good one really. 3 turns, and a fiasco., And Timeline had a problem or two to his method, as i point out once in the log if you can find it. But this does not equate to a need for revolution, as you put it in your thread title. Thursdays turnchat will improve. At most, you can equate the need for a few ammendments (as we have done) and perhaps that we should have impeached a minister a couple of weeks ago, instead of ignoring the issue and making on the minute improvisations instead.

But i still see no truly acceptable excuse for a minister to abandon a chat in progress when he could stay( or, i dont see reason from the exuse you give), and i see no reason for a full blown revolution.

	07-08-2002 08:43									#69
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What is the world coming to?

I am gone for less than 12 hours, I come back and find that everything has gone straight to hell! Uber is calling for revolution, Timeline and Ninot are arguing with him, Skywalker is ranting like a madman, Spiffor is trying to explain the situation, Sir Ralph is probably shaking his head right now and tightning the noose, and everyone else is trying to chip in his two cents!

Ok, that calmed me down. Perhaps I should start with some observations:

1. This was a very bad experience for everyone, and must not happen again. Ever, again.

2. Something must be done about Punkbass not being present for so long, that almost certainly made a bad situation worse.

3. This appears to be an isolated event. This has not happened before, and hopefully will not reoccur.

Now with the contentions:

1. Uber, and Ninot + Timeline, you guys are going to have to come to terms with each other. That is something that real leaders have to, and you will to. You were not elected to quarrel.

2. We need to fast track the impeachment process, the better to get someone to fill Punkbass's place.

3. I have suggested before, and will do so again, that we need real, fixed deputy minister positions. The idea is that both the minister and his deputy(ies) will be present at the turnchat. That way, if the minister doesn't show up, the deputy can step in to fill his place. I suggest an amendment like this.

After being sworn into office, a minister will give to the president a list of deputies who will act as his official aides, and act in his stead should the need arise. The number of deputies, as well as which shall be the Deputy Director, shall be determined by law.

	07-08-2002 08:49									#70
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I had things to do at 4 but thats besides the point.

This was THE worst turnchat ever.

Now, I know thursday's will be better, because you, and everyone else, is on their toes. They're in shock frmo today and they've begun to prepare.

Hell, Spiffor is even taking over city planner (somehow) and making plans. Great.

The game is progressing and there are only going to be MORE orders. Timeline claimed to be "swamped" by orders, and there were only about 12. There are going to be more and more and a major overhall of the entire system is needed RIGHT NOW.

a lot of you are talking about doing it within this system we have now. This system isn't working.

You keep pointing out that we cant use this turnchat as a basis for anything.

We can't use the next one either than.

	07-08-2002 08:51									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme What is the world coming to? I am gone for less than 12 hours, I come back and find that everything has gone straight to hell! Uber is calling for revolution, Timeline and Ninot are arguing with him, Skywalker is ranting like a madman, Spiffor is trying to explain the situation, Sir Ralph is probably shaking his head right now and tightning the noose, and everyone else is trying to chip in his two cents! Ok, that calmed me down. Perhaps I should start with some observations: 1. This was a very bad experience for everyone, and must not happen again. Ever, again. 2. Something must be done about Punkbass not being present for so long, that almost certainly made a bad situation worse. 3. This appears to be an isolated event. This has not happened before, and hopefully will not reoccur. Now with the contentions: 1. Uber, and Ninot + Timeline, you guys are going to have to come to terms with each other. That is something that real leaders have to, and you will to. You were not elected to quarrel. 2. We need to fast track the impeachment process, the better to get someone to fill Punkbass's place. 3. I have suggested before, and will do so again, that we need real, fixed deputy minister positions. The idea is that both the minister and his deputy(ies) will be present at the turnchat. That way, if the minister doesn't show up, the deputy can step in to fill his place. I suggest an amendment like this. After being sworn into office, a minister will give to the president a list of deputies who will act as his official aides, and act in his stead should the need arise. The number of deputies, as well as which shall be the Deputy Director, shall be determined by law.

a voice of reason!

i can agree to put the quarelling behind us. after all, its not like i wanted to start any in the first place

And i agree reform is needed, but not threw quarelling as has been evidenced here.

so forward to reform

REMINDER!
elections are not far away at all, starting on the 12th of this month. we need candidates soon, and for many of the positions.

	07-08-2002 09:01									#72
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I forgot to mention one, very, very important thing. You see, I am a student of history. All of my friends make fun of me for it, but I do know my history. And I know that there is usually not just one revolution that solves things. Often, a revolution is followed by another, and another, and so forth. Africa and S. America are full of countries which have experienced such events. What I am saying is this: Uber, if you have your revolution, then what is to prevent someone else from having another a little later when something goes wrong, or somebody does something they don't like? Before too long we will not be sure who is in charge at all, and shadow governments will form all around us. Quickly, the situation will denegrate... and there will be several Apolyton Civ 3 Demo games. Simply put, we can't take the risk. Changes are needed, but they must be within the legal bounds of the game. Otherwise all of our hard work will come to naught.

	07-08-2002 09:16									#73
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Time is nothing more than a penedulum my friend, swinging back and forth from revolution to revolution, one extreme to the other.

You cant hope to stop it.

	07-08-2002 09:25									#74
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I like Uber's idea for reforming the government.

But the arguing among government ministers must stop!

	07-08-2002 09:28									#75
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A representive, well run Democracy can stave off the need for any revolution. That is what we should seek for, the long term goal, not the immediate gain.

	07-08-2002 09:35									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme A representive, well run Democracy can stave off the need for any revolution. That is what we should seek for, the long term goal, not the immediate gain.

If any turnchats proceed like this again (not just the next one), the game will have a crippled effect and not progress at all. We need the drastic measures to be done NOW.

The long term goals are the same, it's just WHEN to do them i suppose, and NOW is the answer.

	07-08-2002 09:39									#77
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX If any turnchats proceed like this again (not just the next one), the game will have a crippled effect and not progress at all. We need the drastic measures to be done NOW. The long term goals are the same, it's just WHEN to do them i suppose, and NOW is the answer.

You exagerate

A handful of spread out bad turnchats wont turn the demo-game to ruins. What will is forcing the people to go threw a rebuild of the entire system, something most had admitted that it is an aspect they dont totally love.

People complain when ammendments flood the board. People complain when there is too much turnchat news to read. If we dont have a total revolution, but ammend calmly in a civilized way, we will achieve the best result.

	07-08-2002 10:21									#78
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I proposed (or mentioned) this to Trip several times.

In the absence of a minister (due to any reason, sometimes they are not foreseeable) then the President holds the position. Responsibilty is held from above.

If the President is absent then the VP holds that responsibilty. We already have this. Hence the power of a ministry would go to the President and then the VP.

We could amend that to be in the absence of the minister or his explicitly appointed deputy.

Voila. punkbass's absence is no longer an issue. BTW, I believe he mentioned that absence in the campaign or election thread. I am unhappy that he has not been here, but I am not going to hang my wrath at the failings of our governement's structure on him.

Absences will happen. What we need is a simple, quick way of avoiding them causing a disturbance. What I have proposed does that.

	07-08-2002 11:29									#79
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Timeline gave misleading and often incorrect orders, the ministers took all eternity to debate things, and the citizens were largely ignored.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the turnchats are made to play the game. They are neither meant to be an entertainment for the citizens, nor a room for their debates. It is bad enough, that we constantly have to replace inactive people. It is normal, that these decisions are not met without discussions, especially when there are several good options. In the specific case Uber mentioned, it was his own fault, because he did not follow the discussion. OPD had thrown in a good plan for city planning (we have no city planner, sigh!), most people adopted it, and just UberKruX seemed to ignore it. Thus a debate.

Uber: Your poll is it, what it's immature. It is biased and not worth to get any vote, not even abstain.

	07-08-2002 11:47									#80
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The phoenatican representant will NOT give any comment on the issues, as we see this as internal apolytan issue not to be discussed by phoenatican representants.

I only state here i voted abstain to see the result directly on opening the thread, as the outcome would be interesting for us.

	07-08-2002 12:06									#81
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This is so sad. I'm sorry, but when everything starts ripping apart.....Did any of the other democracy games in either Poly or CFC do this? Why is it happening here?!

I'm beginning to highly doubt this demo game. It seems as if theirs arguement after arguement about almost everything. The game has almost boiled down to internal political manuvering and has become so boring and unfun that I almost see no reason to stay other than to try to amend things which probably cannot be amended.

I'm sorry, but I've put quite some time and effort into this demo game (although not as much as other people, I still have my fair share) and to see it all just rip apart because of some turnchat or some party or some poll just really annoys me. Should I continue to stay here knowing full well that something else is just going to happen, something else exactly like this?

Instead of calling for revolutions and acting immature about someone who was acting immature, lets try to pass RESOLUTIONS and REFORM in a PEACEFUL manner. If we all continue to insult each other the democracy game seems more like a political debate on the US Fox News Channel and it becomes so unfun.

If we try to change things in a way thats 1) immature, 2) unconsitituional and 3) just plain rude, we lose focus on what the demo game is about. Its about uniting apolytonians who like civ3 to play it with other apolytonians who like civ3. If theres something wrong, then polietly post about it. No need to start insulting each other. It really makes whoever is throwing it look just as bad (if not worse) then the person their insulting.

So in short, uber shut the **** up, everyone get along with each other, and lets work together to make this demo game fun again. This certainly isnt fun. Writing this post isnt fun. Having to write the post isnt fun. So just STOP flinging mud and insults. Please. I'm sick and tired of it and I'm sure a lot of other people are as well.

Sorry if I sounded a little.....frustrated.

Tassadar

	07-08-2002 12:15									#82
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These pretty much echo my thoughts.....

I am sick of the fighitng. I don't mind healthy debate, but these attacks are really draining the fun out of it for me. Almost makes me glad I will not be around as much , sad, I know, but true.

	07-08-2002 12:44									#83
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Let the court decide! Or at least let the court do something. I am sure they can be useful somehow in this situation, cant they? Provide order at least, or allow the sides to debate their positions in an orderly fashion.

	07-08-2002 12:47									#84
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Oh yes! We can rule the Revolution to be out of order. That'll work.

	07-08-2002 12:53									#85
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh yes! We can rule the Revolution to be out of order. That'll work.

no
Uber is somewhat cooperative. I am sure he would mind going onto a judicial thread with the other side (i guess Ninot) and argue in a rhetorical way, not a Neanderthalic way. Though what can I say. At the first mention of revolution I was shouting for blood. As a joke of course...

	07-08-2002 12:54									#86
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It will work. Until we storm the courthouse and kick your butts for not supporting our revolution.

	07-08-2002 13:03									#87
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For God's sake if you disagree with this thread that much let's now ignore it and get on with other things.

	07-08-2002 13:05									#88
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The interesting bit is how many people agree with it.

	07-08-2002 13:07									#89
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I abstained. I haven't been around all that much lately, and so I have nothing to say about either of this, except that yes, this is probably the most immature thread & poll I have seen so far.

Oh, and by the way...

* Guardian coughs delicately and points to the bottom line of his signature...

	07-08-2002 13:09									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt For God's sake if you disagree with this thread that much let's now ignore it and get on with other things.

I can dig it.