09-08-2002 22:23									#31
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I remain steadfast in my predisposition towards an incontrovertible regime of orthography whenever conceivable. The premeditated obfuscation of lucid expression is abhorrent to any perspicacious individual craving equitable discourse betwixt discerning aggregations of commonalty.

hehe

	09-08-2002 22:36									#32
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Obfuscation is an obfuscatory word.

I suppose then you can handle

The querulous quidnunc absquatulated when shown to be an egregious pedagog.

	10-08-2002 01:21									#33
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Ugh.

	11-08-2002 06:05									#34
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Ethelred wrote:

quote: Rubber is also needed for the tooling. Most such tools use electric motors. Rubber was used for the insulation till synthetics were developed.

I don't remember rubber being a vital resource during the Industrial Age. Then again, I don't pay much attention to pre-20th century history anyway.

If Rubber was such a vital part of machine tools, Rubber would be required to build buildings and infrastructure, not units. If we say the rubber cost represents maintenance of machines that create more accurate and longer ranged rifles and machine guns, then Rubber would also be spent to build precision engineered, more accurate, longer ranged Artillery.

Nor can I accept that Rubber leads to trucks that leads to superior supply lines as Replacable Parts is on a separate branch to the internal combustion engine.

I can accept Rubber representing a whole group of materials, just like Aluminum really represents a whole range of metals used in modern metallurgy. But what scarce material can a WWI infantry not do without? Even the Pedia description of Rubber mentions that synthetic rubber could be created.

	11-08-2002 06:23									#35
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quote: I don't remember rubber being a vital resource during the Industrial Age. Then again, I don't pay much attention to pre-20th century history anyway.

Replaceable parts enables rubber and WWI weaponry. Thats not the beginning of the Industrial Age its the middle which is still going on unless you want to say it ended when the Computer Age arived.

quote: If Rubber was such a vital part of machine tools, Rubber would be required to build buildings and infrastructure, not units. If we say the rubber cost represents maintenance of machines that create more accurate and longer ranged rifles and machine guns, then Rubber would also be spent to build precision engineered, more accurate, longer ranged Artillery.

People don't make as much of those and they do need rubber in the real world ever since they started using rubber tires.

quote: Nor can I accept that Rubber leads to trucks that leads to superior supply lines as Replacable Parts is on a separate branch to the internal combustion engine.

Well accept as it is needed for internal combustion engines as well.

quote: I can accept Rubber representing a whole group of materials, just like Aluminum really represents a whole range of metals used in modern metallurgy. But what scarce material can a WWI infantry not do without? Even the Pedia description of Rubber mentions that synthetic rubber could be created.

Not in WWI. Not till WWII and it was developed during the war to make up for rubber shortages. Not as important for the Germans I suppose since they were still using horse drawn carts a lot.

Its an abstraction. This is a strategy game covering 6000 years of time. Things must be abstracted or the game will be a rutting bore. Games can get too complex for the kind of game they are. Civ III is not a grognard game.

	11-08-2002 06:38									#36
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The rubber thing doesn't bother me. And if it doesn't bother ME it shouldn't you either.

That said, the artificial scarcity of some resources, such as iron, in the basic game is ridiculous.

But rubber being required for certain advances I have no problem with.

How much rubber was needed for tires (even if only on a horse cart) in WW I is a good question though. They had some trucks, and used a lot of horses even in WW II. But the tires may have required rubber.

	13-08-2002 03:40									#37
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Ethelred wrote:

quote: People don't make as much of those [artillery] and they do need rubber in the real world ever since they started using rubber tires.

Not an entirely satisfying answer. Although there are more rifles in an infantry company than artillery in an artillery company, artillery requires lots and lots of precision engineered shells. If lots of Rubber is worn out when making superior rifles and machine guns, then lots of it would worn out making artillery shells. I still don't believe Rubber was a vital part of machine tools but as Civ 3 doesn't model supply, your answer is logical at least.

But you miss the point about the tyres. It is possible, in Civ 3 for a nation to have Replaceable Parts but not Combustion. A nation can have infantry but not trucks. It can be said that Infantry represents better weapons and tactics but not faster, truck-led supply lines.

Now, I can accept that Aluminium is an abstraction of modern metals, including titanium and a variety of rare earth metals. Rubber only represents itself, which isn't needed for WWI infantry (without trucks).

It seems Rubber is merely a gameplay device, not an historical simulation: something else for players to fight or haggle over.

	13-08-2002 14:49									#38
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I think rubber should not be used in so many units like infantry, or Mech Infantry. It supports to many units 7 in toal not including UU. I think the games needs one more resource but I'm not sure what

	13-08-2002 15:22									#39
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I think the game just needs a unit of each type that can be produced resource free to complement the somewhat better ones that can be created with the correct materials. A greater abundance of resources would also help, so in times of peace every nation is likely to have at least limited access to them, but in times of war the resource tiles remain of strategic importance.

	18-08-2002 05:34									#40
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Gas could be another resource, unless you built the Alexander's Horse wonder who could produce enough gas for the whole wide world

Seriously though, another resource? Well the Haber Process sees the end to the need for saltpeter so no point in that persisting at that stage. Perhaps another important metal, I dunno which though...

	18-08-2002 18:41									#41
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Silica? For glass products, fiber optics, chips, etc... (taking a page from the classic "Capitalization").... Also, I think someone mentioned being able to *produce* a resource; how about something like this: If you have rubber resource, and Mass Production, you can then manufacture, say, plastics, and then anything derived from plastics.

	18-08-2002 18:51									#42
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Where CAN'T you find silica? Rock, and especialy sand will do the job. Its nice to have a fairly clean source especially for glass but its not exactly hard to get. Silicone is one of the most abundant elements on the planet and the compound silica is merely its oxide.

	18-08-2002 19:40									#43
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Shouldn't Iron be more critical than Rubber for most units?

Since you can't have buildings that produce substitute resources, you could have setup of units that are slightly weaker and more expensive than the original ones, but require no resources.

I also think that Timber should be a necessary resource for most ships. You can find wood anywhere, but far from all kinds of wood are good for building large ships.

	18-08-2002 19:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Where CAN'T you find silica? Rock, and especialy sand will do the job. Its nice to have a fairly clean source especially for glass but its not exactly hard to get. Silicone is one of the most abundant elements on the planet and the compound silica is merely its oxide.

....Just a suggestion to get some alternatives going. Any others?